2020: F1 Discussions

Locked
Posts
4,257
Likes
7,184
We've had very very little racing excitement this year, podium racing excitement that is. I agree the other battles are of better quality but I don't see the point of watching a race where the podium is pretty much set and the rest battles for the crumbs. Artificial pace car decisions to bring the pack closer together can't change that.
 
Posts
22,289
Likes
31,566
I'm glad they didn't bring out the SC when Grosjean trashed the bollards, that would have brought LH right up behind Max... I think the SC should only be used when it hurts Mercedes. ::stirthepot::😜😁
 
Posts
4,257
Likes
7,184
I don't know if it was born out by figures, but it felt like the Ferrari's were so much faster than everyone else, whereas now at least you feel Max can get on the front row sometimes...
Schumacher was in a league of his own but I remember good races, great overtakes, magic runs in the rain. The guy had balls, a true racer. I know a lot of people think he's a jerk but I'll take that over the sterile racing style of Hamilton. In my mind the dominance of Mclaren Mercedes with Hakkinen was more profound. Those were quantum leap improvements over the Williams era. It only didn't last that long with Ferrari quickly catching up.
 
Posts
5,858
Likes
15,618
seriously? 7th year of total Mercedes dominance and 7 of the most boring F1 years. Ferrari never had that, not even in the '50s.
Yes, because we knew that Schumacher team mates were tied by contract, so we had Ferrari dominance, and we knew -since first race of every season- in which order the Ferrari drivers were going to finish the races.

At least during these 7 years of Mercedes dominance, both Mercedes drivers are fighting each other, and we had some exciting battles between Hamilton and Rosberg, and even Nico winning the 2016 Title... and 2017 and 2018 were not so clearly dominated by Mercedes, because Ferrari was also strong.



Bottas was just third and fifth in those championships, and it was more a battle between Hamilton and Vettel, mostly decided by Vettel mistakes. Even last year, while Ferrari was racing with an illegal engine, the red cars were also very strong, and Hamilton was really making the difference.
 
Posts
22,289
Likes
31,566
Schumacher was in a league of his own but I remember good races, great overtakes, magic runs in the rain. The guy had balls, a true racer. I know a lot of people think he's a jerk but I'll take that over the sterile racing style of Hamilton. In my mind the dominance of Mclaren Mercedes with Hakkinen was more profound. Those were quantum leap improvements over the Williams era. It only didn't last that long with Ferrari quickly catching up.

This is the thing, Williams golden era lasted for five years in the 90s, but two of those years they didn't actually win.
McLaren's golden era lasted what... two years.
Ferrari's last 5 but even then they nearly lost it in 2003
Red Bull's lasted 4 years and Merc now 7...
 
Posts
4,257
Likes
7,184
Yes, because we knew that Schumacher team mates were tied by contract, so we had Ferrari dominance, and we knew -since first race of every season- in which order the Ferrari drivers were going to finish the races.
I don't understand the argument. Having team orders is no prerequisite for stable dominance as the current 7 year drag clearly demonstrates. Whether it be Hamilton or Bottas that comes in first (it's usually Hamilton right!?) doesn't make current F1 the least more exciting than during the Ferrari days.
 
Posts
10,214
Likes
13,242
Good old LeClerc helping us all feel good by taking out Stroll early in the race. Thank you Charles 👍
 
Posts
5,858
Likes
15,618
I don't understand the argument. Having team orders is no prerequisite for stable dominance as the current 7 year drag clearly demonstrates. Whether it be Hamilton or Bottas that comes in first (it's usually Hamilton right!?) doesn't make current F1 the least more exciting than during the Ferrari days.
What I wanted to say is that, in a time of mechanical dominance, with Ferrari (2000-2004) we knew before the start of the race (and the season), that the two Ferraris were going to finish the races first and second, and we also knew who would be second, because he had it in his contract. At least, during the domination of Mercedes, both drivers of the team are free to fight each other, and although Hamilton is usually the first (because he is a good driver!), at least he must beat his team mate (and he is sometimes outmatched by his team mate), something Schumacher did not have to do. Hamilton may race against one (or two, if we include Max), but Schumacher raced alone! If there is a clearly dominant team, but at least its drivers compete with each other (as happened in McLaren 1988 and 1989 with Senna and Prost), it’s much less boring than when there are team orders and a number 2 driver by contract already from the first race of the season
 
Posts
10,214
Likes
13,242
Maybe you should take up drag racing? Although you might find it a bit too fast and scary.
😁😁😁 Jeeez Rob, I know you said your daily drink is Jack Daniels with pepsi but did you drink one too many this time, these rants are amazing! Cheers mate, keep it up!
 
Posts
4,257
Likes
7,184
Schumacher raced alone!
I get your point but it doesn’t make much of a difference in my view. The Ferrari dominance wasn’t absolute. Schumacher didn’t always win the WC with a great lead. Just 19 over Hakkinen in 2000 and 2 over Kimi in 2003. Both Mclaren-Mercedes.
 
Posts
59
Likes
206
would love for someone to turn on the sprinklers again in Germany.... Hockenheim was unreal last year.
 
Posts
5,858
Likes
15,618
I get your point but it doesn’t make much of a difference in my view. The Ferrari dominance wasn’t absolute. Schumacher didn’t always win the WC with a great lead. Just 19 over Hakkinen in 2000 and 2 over Kimi in 2003. Both Mclaren-Mercedes.
In 2000 a win meant 10 points (not 25 like now) so 19 points over Mika were nearly an advantage of 2 full GP’s

I take 2003 😉, but what about these other three “exciting” years, with absolute Ferrari mechanical dominance, and team orders and a number 2 Ferrari driver under contract since the first race of the season? 🥱

 
Posts
22,289
Likes
31,566
😁😁😁 Jeeez Rob, I know you said your daily drink is Jack Daniels with pepsi but did you drink one too many this time, these rants are amazing! Cheers mate, keep it up!

Glad you enjoyed it!😀
 
Posts
4,257
Likes
7,184
In 2000 a win meant 10 points (not 25 like now) so 19 points over Mika were nearly an advantage of 2 full GP’s

I take 2003 😉, but what about these other three “exciting” years, with absolute Ferrari mechanical dominance, and team orders and a number 2 Ferrari driver under contract since the first race of the season? 🥱

Indeed 3 seasons of dominance, no more, no less. Nothing unusual about that.
 
Posts
5,858
Likes
15,618
Indeed 3 seasons of dominance, no more, no less. Nothing unusual about that.
Maybe not unusual, but unnecessary:
the team orders and contractual status of driver number two, when overwhelming mechanical dominance makes it unnecessary, unsportsmanlike, and boring for everyone, as well as detracts from the achievements of driver number 1, who literally races alone because he does not even have to face his teammate
 
Posts
4,257
Likes
7,184
The object of the discussion is the current boring state of F1. It just doesn't compare to the Ferrari years, team orders or not. I have noted your profound dislike of team orders. Mercedes of course doesn't need them as Bottas is not a true challenger. If RB or Ferrari were in contention and the last couple of races would detemine the WC between Hamilton and let's say Verstappen, I'm dead certain Bottas would be kindly asked to give way to Hamilton in order to score needy points. As they did last season.
 
Posts
22,289
Likes
31,566
😁😁😁 Jeeez Rob, I know you said your daily drink is Jack Daniels with pepsi but did you drink one too many this time, these rants are amazing! Cheers mate, keep it up!

SainzJrSr.jpg
That's right son, you should be ashamed of yourself. What kind of pussy are you anyhow?
"Ooooh turn two is too difficult... do you think I whined like that in the forest? Daaaaamn, your Momma has a lot to answer for!"
 
Posts
5,858
Likes
15,618
The object of the discussion is the current boring state of F1. It just doesn't compare to the Ferrari years, team orders or not
I think we were also talking about the comparison with what -for me- is by far the most boring years of F1, mainly because of the team orders already since the first race of the season in the clearly dominant team 😉 Just some previous comments:

7th year of total Mercedes dominance and 7 of the most boring F1 years. Ferrari never had that, not even in the '50s.

I found the Schumacher/Ferrari years very boring indeed, much more boring than now. It's not necessarily about the length of time, but the manner of it. Despite Mercedes dominance, there have been other battles and goings on to keep the attention

Whether it be Hamilton or Bottas that comes in first doesn't make current F1 the least more exciting than during the Ferrari days.
But of course it is subjective. I did not like those Ferrari/Schumacher years at all because I do not like Schumacher at all, for me the most unsportsmanlike driver in history... and instead I am enjoying now very much, because Mercedes is my favorite team, and Hamilton my current favorite driver 😀 (Ayrton is my favorite driver ever)

I have noted your profound dislike of team orders. Mercedes of course doesn't need them as Bottas is not a true challenger. If RB or Ferrari were in contention and the last couple of races would detemine the WC between Hamilton and let's say Verstappen, I'm dead certain Bottas would be kindly asked to give way to Hamilton in order to score needy points. As they did last season.
I don't like team orders at all when they are given from the first race of the season, and when they are given without the driver favored by the orders needing them to win the Title (as happened with Schumacher 2001, 2002, 2004). Of course, I see the team orders very logical and necessary when, late in the season, and with only one of the two drivers with options to fight for the Title, he needs his team mate not to subtract points from his fight with a driver from a rival team (it was not the case with Schumacher 2001, 2002, 2004)
 
Posts
22,289
Likes
31,566
I did find the Schumi years tedious, but I watched them and I guess it wasn't tedious for the Schumi fans. I just think it's disappointing that a very good driver like that would rather win empty titles than race against his team mate (who he'd probably beat anyway). The fact that Rosberg did manage to win one title gives more credibility to Hamilton's titles I think, even though he still only had to beat one guy most of the time.
 
Posts
4,257
Likes
7,184
There are just too many variables. Hamilton has enjoyed a much longer stretch of Mercedes' reign than any F1 racer in history with their team. The number of WC titles has little meaning in that respect. Hamilton is one of the greats but certainly not the GOAT, no matter how many titles and points he still manages to win.