2023 F1 Discussions

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Albert-AMG

·Jul 3, 2023·TAG Heuer Forums Moderator

Jim Dollares

But Albert I fail to see the logic here. If drivers like Logan Sargeant, Nyck de Vries and Lewis Hamilton keep breaking the rules by continueing to be driving outside the track limits so many times that the judges can't even keep up and give penalties during the race, does this mean they should change the rules to cater for these drivers?

My understanding is that these days the rules are consistent and no matter the track, the white line is the limit. I remember the constant lack of logic before this rule when they were setting track limits a bit here and there depending on track, mood and corner and no one was able to keep up with where there was a track limit and not. I think that system was way worse.

Feels like Rob has a point as well, plenty of drivers were able to drive within track limits, why should rules be changed just because a few could not do it? I understand the frustration of being penalised after the race but every driver who kept pushing the limit was told 200 million times by the race engineer "stay within track limits please, we have a black and white flag for track limits, we now have a penalty for track limits". At some point it would make sense to me if those drivers added some margin to their cornering in corner 10.

The Track Limits issue does not have an easy solution on outside corners, but obviously what they established in Austria does not work (even the Stewards themselves admit it) when it generates 1200 infringements in a race! It is clear that it is a measure against nature, at least in the corners where they monitored it. That's an average of 60 infringements per driver during the race! Something doesn't work there, and they have to change it by applying common sense.

9 drivers, nearly half of the grid, received penalties for track limits (Hamilton, Sainz, Tsunoda, Albon, Sargeant, Magnussen, Gasly, Ocon, and de Vries)… Come on!

Maybe they have to apply a different criteria in that corner 10, because not all corners and track limiters are equal. You can see a wall from the F1 car, but it’s not so easy to see a white line on the outside of the corner. Maybe the kerb should be there the track limit, to avoid so many infringements and a lottery race & qualy.

If someone saw the Porsche Super Cup, they passed with the whole car outside the kerb in that corner 10, and they were not penalized for driving so far from the white line…

 

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Aquagraph

·Jul 3, 2023

Seems the FIA has a decision to make. Either they have to stand firm and the drivers will eventually leave a margin, or they don't and they go back to the nonsense we had before where it was fine to go off track in some places and not others. According to the video I posted there is a tendency for the cars to wash out in that corner, but if that is a known problem then the drivers should leave a margin (as they would if there was a wall).

Or maybe it would be simpler to only race on street circuits?

I believe the back of the kerb used to be the limit at Spa, I could never understand how the drivers were way off the track and it was not punished, so yes they could do that. But then they will use all of that and say they can't see where that ends. Whatever you give an F1 driver they will want more.

Personally I think the FIA should just stand firm and say leave a margin, leave a foot if that's what you need to do. Some drivers were nowhere near over the line and they weren't losing massive chunks of time.

Otherwise you could just say let them go wherever they want, but the problem with that is you would need to reprofile corners to make them sharper, otherwise everything will be straightened out and too easy.

 

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Aquagraph

·Jul 3, 2023

At almost every corner on the track, exceeding track limits will just trigger a deletion of that lap. But, do it at the final corner leading onto the pit straight, and the following laptime will also be deleted. This is to ensure drivers can’t use the momentum of exceeding track limits in order to have an advantageous start to the following lap.

I didn't know this. But it makes sense.

Also, something which got lost in the whole drama of the weekend was that (again) we saw a ridiculous and dangerous situation where a car was completing a flying lap and arrived at the last corner to find a bunch of cars just milling about. That needs more attention than the white line thing because sooner or later there will be a huge crash.

 

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TheGanzman

·Jul 3, 2023

Sigh...I USED to love Formula 1, back before all this electronic horsesh!t; back when communications between crew and drivers was by chalkboard; back when men were men and women were GLAD of it! Same goes for Stock Car racing and Drag Racing...

Ah well, at least I've got my DVD collection of vintage racing...and at 67 years old, as long as I let a year or so go by in-between watching, it's like watching it for the first time all over again...

 

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Pitfitter446

·Jul 3, 2023

If drivers can’t see the edges of the track to drive within white lines we could,
Raise the seating position and to hell with the aero,
Use textured paint ( the colour to be decided) 12”-18” wide inside the white line giving a warning through their butt,
Tell them to man up, stop whinging and get as good as the guys who didn’t get penalties,
Or keep the status quo.
Or, mount electrodes in the seat giving them a jolt whenever they transgress.😁.
Electronic sensors as used in many UK circuits, almost instant notification, so instal these drop time penalties, 5 infractions and it’s a red card end of race for abusers.
Ok, over the top there maybe but F1 drivers are supposed to be the best, maybe they need to prove it.

 

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imagwai

·Jul 3, 2023

I kind of agree with Albert. Racing drivers race instinctively. If so many are breaching limits at this circuit then there's something wrong with it, and if they want it to stop, then they need to change the circuit. Or they could say, you know what, just race and we don't care about the white lines. Same for everyone then, no?

 

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Mr_Orange

·Jul 3, 2023

Just lift the track by 150mm so that there is a step down to dirt (real dirt not more concrete painted green), that'll keep them on the track since going off will result in either a puncture or a crash. No need for fancy electronic systems or time penalties!

 

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Aquagraph

·Jul 4, 2023

imagwai

I kind of agree with Albert. Racing drivers race instinctively. If so many are breaching limits at this circuit then there's something wrong with it, and if they want it to stop, then they need to change the circuit. Or they could say, you know what, just race and we don't care about the white lines. Same for everyone then, no?

They are driving faster than their car can take the corner, anyone can do that. I don't see anything wrong with the circuit, it's a challenging corner and some of these guys want to go faster than their car (or their skill level) will allow. Why don't they put those orange bollard things around the edge of the track? Then they could see where it is... well, for the first few laps until one of them takes them out

 

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Aquagraph

·Jul 4, 2023

Will be interesting to see how this transpires, either the FIA stand firm and the drivers have to leave a margin for error (like they do at street circuits) or the FIA backs down. I imagine the next driver's meeting will be interesting, Max, Lando, LeClerc and Russell all on one side smirking at the rest of them.

 

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Aquagraph

·Jul 4, 2023

if they have a sensor, can they not send a signal to the car? Then the driver knows they've done wrong...

 

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Pitfitter446

·Jul 4, 2023

At the end of the day it’s not Track Limits, it’s driver limits, some are clearly exceeding the skill limit, if all could lap equally then it would be car limits that mattered and then the cars could piloted remotely by AI. It what racing is about, drive to the best of your ability, then there are winner(s) and the rest are losers who need to accept their limitations.

 

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Aquagraph

·Jul 5, 2023

Why Were Track Limits Such An Issue In Austria? | Jolyon Palmer’s Analysis | Workday

 

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Aquagraph

·Jul 5, 2023

Jolyon's analysis basically, the drivers can stay within track limits if they want to but their instinct is to 'cheat'.

 

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imagwai

·Jul 5, 2023

Yep, as I mentioned before - it's instinctive that a racing driver will want to go as fast as they can and see how much they can get away with.

 

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Aquagraph

·Jul 5, 2023

That's what Schumacher fans used to say to justify all his cheating ways... as Jolyon said, for sure if they re ran the race tomorrow the drivers would not be off the track anything like as much.

Also he made a good point that the offences were so many and the reaction delayed that by the time the drivers were getting warned they had already got four strikes.

Still, some drivers kept it on the track.

 

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imagwai

·Jul 5, 2023

Aquagraph

Still, some drivers kept it on the track.

I guess in the case of Max, he and his car were fast enough that he didn't need to worry about cutting corners. The other drivers were probably desperately fighting for positions.

 

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Aquagraph

·Jul 5, 2023

You mean like Lando in that McLaren rocket ship... 😁

I forgot racing other cars meant you can break the rules... I don't think the stewards would accept that as a reason somehow.

 

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imagwai

·Jul 5, 2023

Aquagraph

You mean like Lando in that McLaren rocket ship... 😁

I forgot racing other cars meant you can break the rules... I don't think the stewards would accept that as a reason somehow.

I didn't say it was permissible. Just that it was more understandable that it could happen instinctively if a driver was pushing to the absolute limit.

It's kind of like speeding on the road isn't it? We all know we shouldn't do it. But then you enter a 20mph zone, you're late, and it seems too slow and other drivers are doing it, the temptation is to push it a bit if you think you can get away with it. You're pissed off if you get a speeding ticket, but you can't really complain. 😀

 

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Aquagraph

·Jul 5, 2023

True, haha.

 

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·Jul 5, 2023

Why don't they just put some concrete blocks around the corner with TecPro barriers in front of them? They can be taken away after the race, so the bikes can race there. Sure they will wring their hands about 'safety', but this is what they do at every street track and some of those are very fast (Azerbaijan for instance) so what is the difference?