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Aquagraph
·Yes, a more traditional, but not Heritage 39mm chronograph going forward...
2023 TAG Heuer Carrera 60th Anniversary (Panda - CBK221H)
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thingziliketoo
·I would be happy to see where they take it. I like the new styling on the Carrera updates
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paysdoufs
·Posted this in LVMH Week thread, but it's worth posting here. This is indeed the last glassbox and probably the last vintage remake we'll see in quite some time. Frederic is very focused on the future, not the past.
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kappa_md
·I was really hoping for a Heritage Carrera reverse panda 🙁 those two will look good together !
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Aquagraph
·With all due respect - but if FA really thinks that this is how today’s mid-tier watch market works, then he’s IMHO not the right man for the job as CEO. Especially not at TH - a company with one of the greatest and most underused back catalogues in the world…
TAG focused on the future before and it worked very well. The watch industry as a whole needs to get new fans interested and they are not going to do that by trying to sell them £6000 watches that look 50 years old. Models like the panda are niche product, it's supposedly the most desireable one yet but they only made 600 because it took 2 years to sell 1860 of the silver one.
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imagwai
·TAG focused on the future before and it worked very well. The watch industry as a whole needs to get new fans interested and they are not going to do that by trying to sell them £6000 watches that look 50 years old. Models like the panda are niche product, it's supposedly the most desireable one yet but they only made 600 because it took 2 years to sell 1860 of the silver one.
If you read the comments on the Hodinkee article about the new panda, lots of love for the watch, but lots of complaints about the price, and lots of potential lost sales as a result.
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Aquagraph
·I agree with you...up to a point. But I think price is key factor as to why they don't sell more of these - they've positioned it above the Tudor chrono for instance. And it's only hardcore Heuer collectors like us that would buy a Tag Heuer for that amount of money. I'm sure they would have sold a LOT more 1860s if it was more in keeping with the rest of the brand's offerings and priced well versus competitors. I can imagine a lot of people going into the shopping mall, liking the watch, but baulking when they saw the price.
If you read the comments on the Hodinkee article about the new panda, lots of love for the watch, but lots of complaints about the price, and lots of potential lost sales as a result.
Yeah, but they didn't lose any sales cos they only made 600 and it will sell out. So if they made it say £4000 instead lets say they could sell 1000... that would be £4m turnover versus £3.66m, so they would turn over an extra £340,000 but they would have to make and sell another 400 watches. Which means those watches would only bring in an extra £850 each. Surely better to sell 600 in three days or whatever and move on to the next thing... plus you create the hype that the watches sell out so they must be desirable, etc etc.
I don't see any reason for them not to continue making these niche limited editions, other than they don't consider it financially rewarding enough for them. Unfortunately 'everything' is about the kids these days, it was only a matter of time until the watch industry caught on.
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Aquagraph
·Or maybe £5000, would make them an extra £1.34m.... but one of the problems now I think with the way they've made everything about very limited editions is that watches go so cold so quick, I bet the drop off is so steep after the first month that if you have stock left it will take months to shift it, and that's not a good look when it's supposed to be super desirable and doesn't keep the pressure on to buy everything as soon as it comes out.
Also, I think with the Panda, while there a lot of people who want it doesn't seem to have been quite the frantic panic the purple Monaco was. I think a lot of potential customers may have already bought the 160 silver and will stick with that, which is why even if it was cheaper I think they should stick to 1000.
Also, I think with the Panda, while there a lot of people who want it doesn't seem to have been quite the frantic panic the purple Monaco was. I think a lot of potential customers may have already bought the 160 silver and will stick with that, which is why even if it was cheaper I think they should stick to 1000.
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imagwai
·Yeah, but they didn't lose any sales cos they only made 600 and it will sell out. So if they made it say £4000 instead lets say they could sell 1000... that would be £4m turnover versus £3.66m, so they would turn over an extra £340,000 but they would have to make and sell another 400 watches. Which means those watches would only bring in an extra £850 each. Surely better to sell 600 in three days or whatever and move on to the next thing... plus you create the hype that the watches sell out so they must be desirable, etc etc.
I don't see any reason for them not to continue making these niche limited editions, other than they don't consider it financially rewarding enough for them. Unfortunately 'everything' is about the kids these days, it was only a matter of time until the watch industry caught on.
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imagwai
·But yes, you're right - they obviously deliberately wanted to use this model to create a bit of hype for the brand, and have it sell out quickly. They got it right in terms of what they wanted I suppose.
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Aquagraph
·They had tested the volume that would sell out quickly at that price with the other glassbox releases. I'm just saying, they could possibly have sold a lot more than 1860 of the 160th by pricing it more in line with the standard Tag or competitor offerings.
Could they though? Maybe you are right, if they had wanted to make it and have it as a semi-permanent model for the next say 4-5 years I wonder how many they would have sold? My guess is they probably think the glassbox Carrera is running out of steam a bit, if it was a current model they would give it a facelift and a new case, but they can't really do that can they.
Who knows, maybe they will bring out a new case that looks more like the original in a few years and start the whole process all over again. After all TAG has a history of managers coming and going, Freddie will probably get moved somewhere else in a few years and then the next person will scrap everything and send them off in a completely different direction....
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Mspeedster
·I think there's room for heritage remakes, neo classic (like the Carrera Elegant) and avant garde. Other brands have proven so. Even TAG Heuer, don't forget the C11 Monaco CAW211P is a strong selling re-edition that's been part of the regular line up.
But clearly in listening to Frederic talking about this piece and why it's coming to an end, I doubt we'll ever see another "faithful" vintage remake as long as he's CEO. It was the way he says "it's just a re-edition, it's just vintage", his strategy is all about doing new things.
I'm glad they made it, I'm glad I bought one. The last of its kind.
But clearly in listening to Frederic talking about this piece and why it's coming to an end, I doubt we'll ever see another "faithful" vintage remake as long as he's CEO. It was the way he says "it's just a re-edition, it's just vintage", his strategy is all about doing new things.
I'm glad they made it, I'm glad I bought one. The last of its kind.
Edited:
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Aquagraph
·Yeah, I'm not dancing around in circles because they aren't going to do anymore, I know you all think I am but I'm not. I can only assume it's just not financial exciting enough or they feel they've milked it as far as they can for now...
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paysdoufs
·TAG focused on the future before and it worked very well. The watch industry as a whole needs to get new fans interested and they are not going to do that by trying to sell them £6000 watches that look 50 years old. Models like the panda are niche product, it's supposedly the most desireable one yet but they only made 600 because it took 2 years to sell 1860 of the silver one.
A <10k chrono for the 50th BD? It’s ultimately going to be an (in)cess(t)pool of Speedies, Navitimers, Monacos, Chronomasters and maybe Fliegerchronos… Because the people who ask for advice, will get it from those that all wear, want and recommend the same limited pool of time-proven designs. Because when you splash thousands on something profoundly unnecessary like a new(!) mechanical watch, you want to be sure not to make a rookie mistake.
Think about all the Swiss big brands, starting with TH and making your way up to Rolex: If I ask you to name the 2 or 3 models that are representative of each brand's design language, how many of these 20-30 models will not be more or less obvious vintage re-editions (au sens large)? I can spontaneously only think of 2 models, which are exceptions to the rule insofar as they probably move in appreciable numbers w/o an at least 50 year-old ancestor: the Omega AquaTerra and the TH AR.
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Aquagraph
·Yes, but... the difference is that those watches never went out of production as far as I know. They've been subtly updated along the way, keeping them fresh and if not exactly modern then current. New watch fans will desire a Sub because it feels like something new, even if it has old roots. I think we're discussing two different things when you compare the reissues with current Speedmasters and Submariners etc...
Omega and Rolex have actually gone about it quite differently though. Rolex have gone the car route if you like, keeping the same model for generations but updating it every 7 years, making it a little bit bigger, flashy headlights etc... whereas Omega seem to have stuck more strictly to the original Speedy but kept it relevant by releasing ceramic versions and cool watches like the Apollo 8.
Again I think we need to understand that TAG is entry level, I'd wager that a higher percentage of TAGs 'customers' aren't watch geeks vs Omega and Rolex customers. I'd guess a much higher proportion go into a shop and choose the one they like based on looks rather than history.
Again the Connected is a huge seller for them, they need to convince those people to switch to mechanical or ideally buy both, and if they look at the TAG range what are they going to gravitate towards? Modular Carreras or F1s most likely.
I just don't think comparing TAGs customer base with Omegas and Rolex is correct.
Omega and Rolex have actually gone about it quite differently though. Rolex have gone the car route if you like, keeping the same model for generations but updating it every 7 years, making it a little bit bigger, flashy headlights etc... whereas Omega seem to have stuck more strictly to the original Speedy but kept it relevant by releasing ceramic versions and cool watches like the Apollo 8.
Again I think we need to understand that TAG is entry level, I'd wager that a higher percentage of TAGs 'customers' aren't watch geeks vs Omega and Rolex customers. I'd guess a much higher proportion go into a shop and choose the one they like based on looks rather than history.
Again the Connected is a huge seller for them, they need to convince those people to switch to mechanical or ideally buy both, and if they look at the TAG range what are they going to gravitate towards? Modular Carreras or F1s most likely.
I just don't think comparing TAGs customer base with Omegas and Rolex is correct.
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Aquagraph
·I don't think i'm explaining what I mean very well. In the 1990s TAG had almost zero classic models and they were hugely successful. Top of the range was the 6000 and it was surprisingly expensive. I know this isn't the 90s anymore, but that's what j meant by focusing on the future, maybe not always framing everything as inspired by this or that, however tenuous the connection may be.
Like the three hand Autavia, it's not an Autavia... so why call it one? It seems to harm it more than it helps. Just call it a pilot or something new. We've been saying this for years, modular Carreras were strong enough not to need to be called Carreras, could still have sold tons of them.. now the Carrera name means very little because on the one gand it means a panda on the other it means a cheap Big Bang.
Like the three hand Autavia, it's not an Autavia... so why call it one? It seems to harm it more than it helps. Just call it a pilot or something new. We've been saying this for years, modular Carreras were strong enough not to need to be called Carreras, could still have sold tons of them.. now the Carrera name means very little because on the one gand it means a panda on the other it means a cheap Big Bang.
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Aquagraph
·To some extent I would also agree with the accusation that TAG is a fashion watch, not in the Michael Kors sense of the word, but certainly it seems more aesthetic focused than other comparable brands. For example, while TAG has taken steps towards making their own movements nobody would really dream of comparing them to Omega in that department. TAG are very focused on this has a different colour dial, or unusual materials.
Really if they want to step up they should be offering chronometer spec watches as standard, not Calibre 5s.
Really if they want to step up they should be offering chronometer spec watches as standard, not Calibre 5s.
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Mspeedster
·A late delivery for me, but still made it in time for a happy #tHEUERsday!
I'm just starting to soak in this watch, but my initial impression is WOW!
In person, the dial is the best part. It doesn't look steel grey to my eyes, as it appears in some photos. It's just perfect for me!
Number 338 is now officially in the house. 😁
I'm just starting to soak in this watch, but my initial impression is WOW!
In person, the dial is the best part. It doesn't look steel grey to my eyes, as it appears in some photos. It's just perfect for me!
Number 338 is now officially in the house. 😁
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Jemagloh
·I looooooooove the dial. 🥰
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Anthony.
·A late delivery for me, but still made it in time for a happy #tHEUERsday!
I'm just starting to soak in this watch, but my initial impression is WOW!
In person, the dial is the best part. It doesn't look steel grey to my eyes, as it appears in some photos. It's just perfect for me!
Number 338 is now officially in the house. 😁
Huge Congratulations to you Mate.
We've been waiting for this one for years.
We are exactly 100 pieces apart.
#PANDAmonium #PANDAmonium
