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Morgan Stanley Top 20 Swiss Watch Brands - TAG Heuer is down again
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Gene242
·But the two companies that moved ahead of them are Swatch and JLC. I wouldn't imagine anyone that buys JLC would buy TAG or vice versa, and surely Swatch will drop again next year cos the Moonswatch was a one off.
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Jim Dollares
·But they haven't started selling them yet. How can they affect the turnover. So if next year TAG go up we can say the sunglasses were a great idea. Right?
What is TAG Heuer you ask? Oh I instantly know, is what customers should feel.
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Aquagraph
·The point of the argument is that TAG Heuer for a long time has lacked a clear distinct brand image and strategy. Not if sunglasses turn out to be a sales success in 2024. Building a strong luxury brand is all about how the brand is perceived right? Being cohesive is what builds a strong brand, long-term. I know we all hate to mention the world's most boring watch manufacturer but Rolex if anyone has proven how to build a strong luxury brand?
What is TAG Heuer you ask? Oh I instantly know, is what customers should feel.
That's a nice idea. And it would need to be executed over a long period I'm guessing. Which isn't possible when you change CEO every five minutes. Plus, it's easy for Rolex because they have no shareholders and no pressure. But, I would counter that this is a separate issue than what watches they sell. Rolex and Omega have all sorts of different watches, but they have a stronger brand than TAG. In fact when you think about it Rolex have way more different watches than TH, TAG have 4 different models (F1, Carrera, Aquaracer and Monaco) and two 1/2 models (Link and Autavia), Rolex have at least 10 (Datejust, Daydate, Oyster Perpetual, Submariner, Deep Sea, Celini/1906?, Daytona, Yachtmaster, GMT, Yachtmaster II...)
One thing that is interesting to think about is that TAG Heuer's green and red logo is quite obnoxious, in fact when I look down that list of companies I can't think of one other company on there (aside from Rolex, oddly) that I associate with a colour, never mind two such clashing tones. Add to that that the red and green shield is hardly used on any watches these days, and with very few exceptions only quartz/entry level pieces. I love the logo but is it holding them back as far as 'luxury' perception goes?
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Jim Dollares
·never mind two such clashing tones. Add to that that the red and green shield is hardly used on any watches these days, and with very few exceptions only quartz/entry level pieces. I love the logo but is it holding them back as far as 'luxury' perception goes?
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Aquagraph
·Y'see, y'all think I'm a simpleton, but I come up with an angle you never thought of.
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Mspeedster
·One thing that is interesting to think about is that TAG Heuer's green and red logo is quite obnoxious, in fact when I look down that list of companies I can't think of one other company on there (aside from Rolex, oddly) that I associate with a colour, never mind two such clashing tones.
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Aquagraph
·And yet another reason to favor the "Heuer" logo... (Sorry, just had to say it.) 😉
Well... I can't really argue with that can I. 😡
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McBeardy
·That's a nice idea. And it would need to be executed over a long period I'm guessing. Which isn't possible when you change CEO every five minutes. Plus, it's easy for Rolex because they have no shareholders and no pressure. But, I would counter that this is a separate issue than what watches they sell. Rolex and Omega have all sorts of different watches, but they have a stronger brand than TAG. In fact when you think about it Rolex have way more different watches than TH, TAG have 4 different models (F1, Carrera, Aquaracer and Monaco) and two 1/2 models (Link and Autavia), Rolex have at least 10 (Datejust, Daydate, Oyster Perpetual, Submariner, Deep Sea, Celini/1906?, Daytona, Yachtmaster, GMT, Yachtmaster II...)
One thing that is interesting to think about is that TAG Heuer's green and red logo is quite obnoxious, in fact when I look down that list of companies I can't think of one other company on there (aside from Rolex, oddly) that I associate with a colour, never mind two such clashing tones. Add to that that the red and green shield is hardly used on any watches these days, and with very few exceptions only quartz/entry level pieces. I love the logo but is it holding them back as far as 'luxury' perception goes?
Rolex may have more models, but each model shares the brand identity - oyster style case, oyster 3 link bracelet, jubilee bracelet, cyclops etc. You can pretty much spot a Rolex across the room, & if it isn’t a Rolex, 70% will be homage to it. Omega have their lyre lugs & HEV valve.
TH doesn’t have that. Yes the Carrera has distinct styling clues as does the Monaco (but I guess that’s an outlier). But many of the others doesn’t. TH may have 6 models (you can’t count 2 as 1/2) but how many SKUS in those?
Saying that Tudor & Omega are they same.
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Mspeedster
·The point of the argument is that TAG Heuer for a long time has lacked a clear distinct brand image and strategy. Not if sunglasses turn out to be a sales success in 2024. Building a strong luxury brand is all about how the brand is perceived right? Being cohesive is what builds a strong brand, long-term. I know we all hate to mention the world's most boring watch manufacturer but Rolex if anyone has proven how to build a strong luxury brand?
What is TAG Heuer you ask? Oh I instantly know, is what customers should feel.
This was also exactly my point on the never ending TAG Heuer vs. Heuer name debate. For me, it was never about the name change or one being better than another. It's that the brand has this split personality because of it and hence struggles with its own brand identity.
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Ara
·I really don't know where to drop this quote re: brands in relation to enthusiasts -- but to me this is relevant across this entire forum, so will drop it in this thread.
--->"(A quick disclaimer, I don’t think that most brands actually care what enthusiasts are asking for, but it’s nice to dream about designers for our favorite brands sitting in watch forums, reading our comments, and designing the products we ask for.)"<---
https://www.everestbands.com/blogs/...ctions-will-2024-be-the-year-tudor-goes-green
--->"(A quick disclaimer, I don’t think that most brands actually care what enthusiasts are asking for, but it’s nice to dream about designers for our favorite brands sitting in watch forums, reading our comments, and designing the products we ask for.)"<---
https://www.everestbands.com/blogs/...ctions-will-2024-be-the-year-tudor-goes-green
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Aquagraph
·Rolex may have more models, but each model shares the brand identity - oyster style case, oyster 3 link bracelet, jubilee bracelet, cyclops etc. You can pretty much spot a Rolex across the room, & if it isn’t a Rolex, 70% will be homage to it. Omega have their lyre lugs & HEV valve.
TH doesn’t have that. Yes the Carrera has distinct styling clues as does the Monaco (but I guess that’s an outlier). But many of the others doesn’t. TH may have 6 models (you can’t count 2 as 1/2) but how many SKUS in those?
Saying that Tudor & Omega are they same.
Isn't the Aquaracer bezel pretty recognizable?
I disagree, the Link is certainly 1/2 a model!
Okay, so I can see what you're saying... Cartier is a brand that has a very strong identity even across watches that look quite different (and a lot that look very similar), but that is something that has been baked into the brand for decades. It's going to be incredibly hard for a brand that has very disparate designs to cobble all that together to make them all share the same 'identity' - they would need to basically renew the entire line up over a very short period and decide on a design philosophy that isn't the flavour of the month but one that will last for decades.
And what happens after about three years when the miracle hasn't happened and they decide need to try something else. You would have to commit to an identity for at least ten years to make it stick, which will be about 4 CEOs in TAG world. So each CEO would have to join the company and commit to not making their own mark, to not deviating from the plan... can you see that happening. And what about the Monaco? It just sits there like a sore thumb because it can't be changed to fit in with everything else? It's not gonna happen is it.
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Aquagraph
·Honestly, I can see why everyone looks at Rolex and thinks that's how you do it. But I don't think copying what they've done is the answer - because you can't go back and change what's happened. Rolex have stuck to their philosophy for 50+ years, Cartier even longer...
And doesn't Grand Seiko have exactly this strong brand identity, but it's perceived by many as being boring. You could look at Rolex and say they are geniuses for not changing, but there's probably a lot of brands who never changed who went bust - what I mean is simply not changing is not really the key, in Rolex's case it seems to be that their marketing team have killed it over the years. Rolex has become almost a bye-word for luxury. They sponsor F1 but no one really thinks of them as being a 'motorsport' brand, they sponsor show jumping and tennis, but again it's not overt - they don't make limited edition tennis player watches.
Perhaps we should be comparing TAG to Richard Mille and Hublot rather than Cartier and Rolex, since they basically started from scratch in the 1980s, with all new models...
And doesn't Grand Seiko have exactly this strong brand identity, but it's perceived by many as being boring. You could look at Rolex and say they are geniuses for not changing, but there's probably a lot of brands who never changed who went bust - what I mean is simply not changing is not really the key, in Rolex's case it seems to be that their marketing team have killed it over the years. Rolex has become almost a bye-word for luxury. They sponsor F1 but no one really thinks of them as being a 'motorsport' brand, they sponsor show jumping and tennis, but again it's not overt - they don't make limited edition tennis player watches.
Perhaps we should be comparing TAG to Richard Mille and Hublot rather than Cartier and Rolex, since they basically started from scratch in the 1980s, with all new models...
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Aquagraph
·And since they've evolutionized the Sel and the 2000 over the last 30 years, maybe keep them and kick out the Carrera and the Monaco.
LOL
LOL
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Gene242
·Honestly, I can see why everyone looks at Rolex and thinks that's how you do it. But I don't think copying what they've done is the answer - because you can't go back and change what's happened. Rolex have stuck to their philosophy for 50+ years, Cartier even longer...
And doesn't Grand Seiko have exactly this strong brand identity, but it's perceived by many as being boring. You could look at Rolex and say they are geniuses for not changing, but there's probably a lot of brands who never changed who went bust - what I mean is simply not changing is not really the key, in Rolex's case it seems to be that their marketing team have killed it over the years. Rolex has become almost a bye-word for luxury. They sponsor F1 but no one really thinks of them as being a 'motorsport' brand, they sponsor show jumping and tennis, but again it's not overt - they don't make limited edition tennis player watches.
Perhaps we should be comparing TAG to Richard Mille and Hublot rather than Cartier and Rolex, since they basically started from scratch in the 1980s, with all new models...
The product itself, Heuer vs Tag..it all seems a moot point when the general public thinks of it as a stepping stone before true luxury...the watch a Rolex owner buys his son while he ponders about a patek for himself. For the most part watches are not tools anymore, enthusiast are not the majority so until the Brand name is viewed in the same light as Rolex, carrier, omega it is a uphill battle. Tag may have help the resurgence and popularity of Heuer but it also made them accessible luxury...and that is the image that they must shake or embrace it and dominate the lane longines currently holds
Edited:
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Aquagraph
·Honestly I think they should give up on the idea of chasing Omega and Rolex. They're not going to do it. They should be crushing the £1500-£4000 sector instead. I don't think these tables are very helpful either really. Forget about Rolex, I mean we know they are off the charts and Omega and Cartier are pretty much set in second and third. If they want to climb up the ranks they need to be keeping their prices the same and giving us better movements and better finishing / materials, basically make their watches better value than the immediate competition but they aren't showing any interest in doing that.
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Aquagraph
·Isn't it funny how every year we hear that the Richard Mille bubble is going to burst and yet every year since they came into the chart (at number 8) they've either maintained or gone upwards. And all while making those dreadful watches.
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McBeardy
·I think as a ‘brand’ & the cache it has TH is still very much recognisable, around the world and to many who aren’t into watches.
But I agree they shouldn’t be chasing the void left by Rolex & Omega, and instead be proud of the ‘entry level’ moniker they had. What is wrong with being someone’s first luxury watch or stepping stone into the world, many collectors who have embraced much larger luxury watch still fondly remember their entry level Tags.
The issue with many fans & the criticism they get is the RRP they charge for the value they offer (not necessarily in-house) but power reserve being more than 38hrs or a calibre5 which is known to break. If brands below Tag can produce better Tag should!
if they kept to the £1,000-£5,000 price bracket but had a stable of iconic (cue heritage) models, modern looking watches (aquaracers,l etc) & some that possible forward thinking, providing they provide good specs they’ll crush it.
There brand is known better than Tudor, product better than Oris, on par I’d say (perception wise of being known) with Breitling but currently product IMHO isn’t as good.
But I agree they shouldn’t be chasing the void left by Rolex & Omega, and instead be proud of the ‘entry level’ moniker they had. What is wrong with being someone’s first luxury watch or stepping stone into the world, many collectors who have embraced much larger luxury watch still fondly remember their entry level Tags.
The issue with many fans & the criticism they get is the RRP they charge for the value they offer (not necessarily in-house) but power reserve being more than 38hrs or a calibre5 which is known to break. If brands below Tag can produce better Tag should!
if they kept to the £1,000-£5,000 price bracket but had a stable of iconic (cue heritage) models, modern looking watches (aquaracers,l etc) & some that possible forward thinking, providing they provide good specs they’ll crush it.
There brand is known better than Tudor, product better than Oris, on par I’d say (perception wise of being known) with Breitling but currently product IMHO isn’t as good.
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McBeardy
·Isn't it funny how every year we hear that the Richard Mille bubble is going to burst and yet every year since they came into the chart (at number 8) they've either maintained or gone upwards. And all while making those dreadful watches.
Uber luxury will always do well. But look at the market they aim for F1 drivers & footballers, people whose disposable income isn’t going to run out.