I wasn't equating the two in any way. Just using Seiko as an example of how to distinguish two related brands.

 

To be fair I was needling you a bit...

I agree they don't have to be / shouldn't have been called Carreras in the first place, but unfortunately that is world we live in. I don't think the modern Mini should be called a Mini, because it has nothing to do with the original Mini, but again for some reason the world is obsessed with 'heritage' and so there we are.

But I don't understand the idea that the Heuer pieces should be the aspirational, higher end... they actually aren't even that now. There are plenty of modern Carreras that cost more than the Autavias and Monacos as it is. The 'Heuer' models are currently mid-tier if anything, and they can't be the highest priced because obviously exotic materials like carbon and tourbillons have to be dearer.

Also, how can a Heuer 02 Link be significantly cheaper than a Heuer 02 Monaco? Unless you're suggesting that they should stop putting the Heuer 02 in non-Heuer products. I presume you are. So do they just go back to using Calibre 16 movements or make TAG entirely quartz?

You can have the Heuer completely split off from the TAG Heuer sure, but it can't be the 'expensive' range because there's already plenty of TAGs that are higher end. Are you suggesting the Heuer pieces should be artificially inflated so that they can become 'Lexus' to TAG Heuer's 'Toyota'? Or are you suggesting TAG stop making anything more expensive than the cheapest 'Heuer'?

Perhaps we need TAG Heuer, then Heuer and then something else '?' for the Nanograph etc? Otherwise I don't see how you intend to square this?

 

I would definitely go a Top Time Limited Edition over the new Carrera this time around.

 

Your Grand Seiko analogy doesn't work because you wouldn't want the Nanograph to be a Heuer either. Grand Seiko is a modern line not a heritage line.

 

Why shouldn’t the Carrera be allowed to evolve? It’s the flagship line. It shouldn’t be left in the past. Take Porsche. Recent 911s only marginally resemble the iconic F and G models. Every generation is a line of state of the art race cars, very similar to this line of H02 powered racing Carreras. It makes a lot of sense to me. Do aircooled 911 enthusiasts like the new 911s? Hardly, to them the 911 died after the 993. But Porsche has never been more successful than today.
Vintage enthusiasts got two great 39mm Carreras already, what’s there to complain?

 

Again, just using Seiko as an example of how you can, in theory, separate/distinguish two related brands incorporating the same name. The details of which models would be TAG Heuer and which would be Heuer would be for someone who is paid to do it to work out, not me

One might argue Tag has already done this to an extent with the heritage pieces, but the models come and go, and there's too much confusion between the brands.

 

So there seems to be two lines of thought here, if I'm not mistaken. Imagwai wants 'Heuer' to be the high end range, but is not limited to being 'Heritage' where Abrod wants the Heuer to be 'vintage' only but still the high end. Right?

I'd actually be happy with Imagwai's suggestion. If the Nanograph was a 'Heuer' it wouldn't bother me in the slightest.

I don't have any emotional connection to the Carrera name, I'm quite happy for that to be a vintage 'Heuer' only product.

The problem comes when you look at the Monaco. If the Monaco is a 'vintage' line, then is it a Calibre 11 only product? Or would they still make the Heuer 02 version only with Heuer branding? Because I would like a Monaco, but I'd like it with the crown on the right side... and that's probably true of a lot of people otherwise the Calibre 12 wouldn't have been around so long at very near the same price.

 

I think part of the problem here is the disjointed history of the Carrera. Since it went out of production it didn't evolve naturally through the years and when it came back it was as a 'heritage' throwback. When did the Carrera actually start going 'wrong'? Was it the Heuer 01 or was it before that? Is my carbon fibre dial, titanium cased Calibre 16 Carrera okay or is that an abomination, what about the general Calibre 16 models are they equally bad? I'm genuinely intrigued to know...

 

Well first of all, does each line need a chronograph? What if the Link was just a dressy watch line?

OK, for argument's sake let's say yes, there must be a chronograph in each line. The TAG line could have a lesser-finished Heuer-02 and a solid caseback, to go along with less complicated case and hand finishes. Whereas the higher-end Heuer line would have the Heuer-02 with the nice steering wheel rotor visible through an open caseback etc. If you ask me, this makes even more sense as only the Heuer heritage models we have now have any link to motor racing.

The Heuer line would be chronograph-only and consist of three core model lines: Carrera, Autavia, Monaco. There could be LEs or small runs of other models, both reissues and new models with vintage-inspired design points (think Targa Florio). TAG could start with quartz movements, but also include mechanical 3-handers and either ebauche or lower-grade in-house chronographs. I think there's plenty of space in that lineup for the occasional Tourbillon or whatever; it's not like the slogan for the TAG line would be "These are the cheap ones!"

Grand Seiko has a Heritage line, and are the brand's bread and butter actually.

Porsche tried to kill off the 911 and replace it with the 928. It's a great story and worth a Google.

Instead, it survived, and it resembles the original 911s quite well actually, when you consider it from any perspective further than size. Ethos, style, quality.

They're successful because they make SUVs now. But they did not call this a 911 now, did they?



No. They were confident that it would sell on its own merits without needing a false name, and it has.

Meanwhile, this is a modern Mitsubishi Eclipse:



Mitsubishi is fast approaching irrelevancy, and they knew they had to sell a crossover. The "Eclipse" name is what Mitsubishi built its name on in North America and they wanted buyers to consider this because of the name.

Nobody wants one.

 

Hardly surprising if you use tin cans for wheels

 

Heuer was never a high end brand though was it? Classic lines and quality.

so long as the drive for profit does not have them cutting for corners on the finish, I don’t expect the Heuer lone to be ‘high end’.

my simple expectation from Heuer is that they are (reasonably) true to the heritage designs. No need to he obsessive and 100% faithful. There’s room for improvement, a touch of modernity and style. Just make if feel like a £5k/£6k watch should feel in terms of finishing quality.

This can easily be done alongside completely modern inventions - even those carrying the same name. I don’t really have a problem with that.

Just keep the branding separate. Don’t mix and match so you have tag and heuer on the same exact design (or very similar) as int he case of e.g Monaco. Then it gets confusing and you end up with the skoda/VW type debate.

Heuer vintage were never really (true) luxury Were they?

And the other confusion is when Tag Heuer stray into the Hublot price bracket with designs that are not too dissimilar. A £20k skeleton is a £20k skeleton. As curious as a miniature hamster wheel is. A mass produced cheap one is like having a fake gucci handbag. When the whole point of a tourbillon is to show off that you can afford to oay someone £100k to put a funtionally pointless hand made miniature marvel on your wrist just for giggles.

This trying to be all things to all men (and women), is what’s confusing. And why I mostly stick to the Heuer range. For anything else I go elsewhere as you know what you’re ‘getting’.

Still, those skeleton Carerras in ceramic and gold do look tempting. Must resist. Must resist.

Tag is not alone in diluting some of its brand value for short term gain by slapping cherished names that (once) stood for someone special on anything that moves. Car makers (e.g BMW) are equally guilty of putting an M badge on anything and everything.

I’ve never personally seen a big ‘value’ in the Carrera name. Any more than the Speedmaster or Submariner names. None are really ‘top of the line’. You simply know what they are. You can pay £5k for one, or £50k. In most cases they are the same watch, same design and same basic level of functionality (movement).

But when it gets silly with diver chronos and diving racing watches and diving pilot racing chrono dress watches. What’s the point? (Apart from just to sell stuff), It is lazy product development and marketing. Trading on a a name rather than innovating and letting that earn credibility in own right.

I know Hublot get a pad press amongst many so called watch snobs. But I admire and respect their ‘fk you’ attitude to heritage. They creat some amazing designs and push the boundaries of materials and what a watch should look like. This is what Techniques D’Avant Garde should surely be about.

The mistake they made was not really having a proper strategy when the bailed out heuer. And they’ve not been able to recover that since. Hence you get ‘haters’ like that idiot in the video posted here recently.

One thing that I’ve picked up on and realised very recently. What I expect from a watch today is not the same as the nostalgia that we connect with the heritage. Many of these items were not intended to serve the same purpose. The invention of the luxury sports/tool watch came way after the originals. And purely marketing rather then actually about watchmaking.

many of us want different things from the same watch also - and pleasing everyone is impossible.

(Not directed at anyone here - next bit is observational across many forums and social media groups - basically human nature)

some want value and berate cost cutting.
Some want to have a particular movement and know all about it.
Some love the history and the ‘story’ behind the watch. The heritage and authenticity and don’t want anything to change from that on a beloved model.
Some want ‘investment’ (or at least protection against loss) or a trinket to show off.
Some want scarcity and bragging rights
Some want innovation and modernity
Some want something they want to be affordable to them and bemoan not being able to afford it.
But nobody needs ‘just a watch’ these days.

Trying to be all of these to have something to please everyone without also ‘upsetting’ (to the extent anyone rational can actually be that bothered about an object in all honesty that’s purely discretionary).... well it is next to impossible!!!

so tag, tag heuer and many other watch brands really just decide which of those niches they want to play in. Because as the economy and appetite for watches then the post covid economic depression will sort out the wheat from the chaffe one way or another.

Apologies for rambling post. It keeps me from temptation (to spend)

 

I've got no problem with the Link being a dressy 3-hander, except...

...aren't we forgetting the Ayrton Senna connection?

I mean, that's a big thing to be cutting out isn't it? And lest we forget, Senna wore TAG Heuer not Heuer.

I don't understand, sorry. You want TAG Heuer to make quartz and cheaper chronos but also tourbillons? But not chronos in the £5000+ range? So the choice will be modern watches only up to £3000 and then vintage only £4000+ (with some £15,000 tourbillons). I don't think that will work. I'm not at all sure the 'vintage' market is big enough to warrant that anyway. I'd imagine, TAG sells quite a lot of modern £5000 chronographs and they wouldn't want to let that business go. For all the claims that 'Heuer' Carreras are so desirable, the fact that even the Calbre 17 models end up in the outlets suggest otherwise.

What I meant was all the Grand Seikos I've seen have looked 'modern', or certainly not obviously 'vintage'.

 

It would make a lot more sense if the Heuer pieces were finished much better and had a much higher price tag. Then you could distinguish them from the TAG Heuer pieces. That's where the issue is with this two tier system, Lexus is expensive, Toyota is cheap. I don't see a problem with this, actually. It's a well known ploy in luxury goods to put prices up to gain cache. It didn't do Richard Mille any harm, did it? Isn't part of the problem that the Monaco is actually too affordable? Shouldn't it be more like £8000?

 

So what if we split the brands, rename the new Autavia, rename the modular Carrera and make the Monaco - Calibre 11 only. What about the Calibre 16 Carreras? Would they also need renaming? Or are they Carrera enough to be Heuers? I'm guessing not....

 

but does it need to be £8k? £5k is a hell of a lot of money to many people. I’m not sure there’s a real issue with it being ‘too affordable’. Upping the price would (in theory at least) hopefully allow for better finishing and materials. But it would be a case of diminishing returns. i’m sure they’ve made a few already that are well north if £10k. But then you get silly arguments about it being better to put that kind of money into a Rolex. Kinda missing the point.

The issue is that TH has at times let the bean counters cut a little too deep and missed the mark on small stuff like shitty straps or same clasp on every model. Yes that would ramp up cost to address. But not by £3k at retail.

 

They were quality sports chronographs the same way that Rolex Submariners of the era were quality dive watches. Back then, "high end" were gold dress watches; this only changed in 1972 with the introduction of the Royal Oak as the first high-end steel sports watch. They were not, however, entry-level watches.

Well I personally think one should go to Hublot for large, "modern" skeleton type watches, but I'm trying to throw @Aquagraph a bone here.

Ayrton Senna was paid to endorse and wear TAG Heuer, unlike the original set of racers who wore them because they were the go-to in the 60s. And he wore the S/EL because it was the highest-end TAG of the time, not because it had anything to do with racing. Besides, try as TAG might to strengthen that connection, nobody really cares.

Old King Seiko:


Modern Grand Seiko collection lineup:



The main sellers are the Spring Drive models in the GS Heritage line, which are around US $5,000

 

Hmmm. How does that work? So Hublot will be selling skeletons at £4000? That's not going to fly is it? Unlike TAG Heuer, Hublot are perceived as a luxury brand, I don't see them making 'entry level' skeletons!

Who would also doubtless have whored themselves to the highest bidder if they had been born a bit later.

Well, maybe so... because by the 80s TAG Heuer was a 'luxury' brand and nobody was timing their lap on the wristwatch anymore.

Except the people who buy £17,000 Senna Tourbillons presumably, and the people who have bought multiple F1s, Links and Carreras... hell even I have a Senna watch and I'm not even that bothered about him!

GRAND SEIKO
The one on the right certainly doesn't look vintage and the one in the middle looks more akin to a Calibre 16 Carrera[/QUOTE]

 

QUOTE="abrod520, post: 1547276, member: 16910"]They were quality sports chronographs the same way that Rolex Submariners of the era were quality dive watches. Back then, "high end" were gold dress watches; this only changed in 1972 with the introduction of the Royal Oak as the first high-end steel sports watch. They were not, however, entry-level watches[/QUOTE]

i think we’re in agreement. They were never high end. But not being high end does not equate to being entry level. And all these terms are relative. Difference is today the perception around the brand. The generally same watch is marketed as a luxury product. Rolex and other brands have simply been more successful at ‘upping the game’ without cannibalising their product line too much. This is as much about marketing and business model as it has to do with watchmaking.

Some brands improved quality and maintained volume. Other constrained supply to create artificial scarcity, other chased volume and in some cases sacrificed quality. All different strategies to meet the same end of maximising profits.

All this BS about ‘in house movements’ and Tourbillons in mass market industrially made products. It is typical ‘man maths’ justification of prices. METAS, COSC, 32 core processors, hand wound 321s, Mac Vs PC, Who makes the fastest V8. This is all a marketers dream. And 1/2 of our species falls. It all appeals to very base psychology to keep us spending.

i’m much more shallow. If I like it. I buy it and generally i’m quite happy unless it comes on a crappy strap. pretend it is a hobby to justify it to the Mrs. Though she thinks hookers and cocaine would be a lot cheaper.

 

Okay, but by upping the price you would create headroom for the Heuer 02 TAG Heuer (not) Carreras to exist in the £5000 range... that was my thinking.