Who’s to Blame?

[bpsmith]

Been thinking about this for a while but the latest ABTW article and podcast shows I am not alone in wondering.

Anyway, many of us complain about the lack of interesting innovation, plus the ever increasing pricing over the last couple of years seems inverse to the cost to make such simple pieces with minimal complications.

So the question is who is to blame for this? Is it the watch brands for not taking any risks at the low to mid range, then asking massive 5 or 6 figures for anything with some innovation? Or is it the consumers for continuing to purchase every simple vintage piece that gets released, without expecting much more than the basic complications or finishing levels for our cash?

I mean why would the industry bother to freshen things up, when it would appear that they’re giving the consumer everything they want?

The chicken or the egg…

 

[Jim Dollares]

My girlfriend says I am always to blame

 

[Jim Dollares]

Joking aside, I think this phenomenon is due to slower and slower sales. Many brands act like desperate companies close to going bankrupt. Save money everywhere, cut costs, increase prices, don't do anything that has even a tiny risk of failing. What is unfortunate is that all bigger brands do this and therefore can get away with it because it has become the normal Swiss way. The consumer ends up with an endless amount of cheaply made watches sold at a high premium.

Like when Rob pointed out the poor quality of the dial printing on the new TAG Heuer Carrera Tide watch, I said yeah dont use a loupe on a TAG. @abrod520 was quick to point out that this is true for all brands at this pricepoint (and therefore OK?).

 

[Aquagraph]

Jim Dollares

My girlfriend says I am always to blame

She's probably right

 

[dtf]

Jim Dollares

Joking aside, I think this phenomenon is due to slower and slower sales. Many brands act like desperate companies close to going bankrupt. Save money everywhere, cut costs, increase prices, don't do anything that has even a tiny risk of failing. What is unfortunate is that all bigger brands do this and therefore can get away with it because it has become the normal Swiss way. The consumer ends up with an endless amount of cheaply made watches sold at a high premium.

I think this, coupled with the watch media and influencer economy, where no one will say anything bad or write a negative review in case they don’t get invited next time/given the free watches/whatever.

 

[Aquagraph]

The watch community is to blame. Pure and simple. It's pretty plain from spending even a short amount of time here that most don't want innovation they want reissues. Preferably in a smaller case with a panda dial. The other 90pc of Swiss customers don't know enough to know they're being sold rehashed ideas so it works.
I can't really blame them either. Social media is so toxic that any genuinely new product is more likely than not going to get annihilated by the watch community before it can even get going. There's probably hardly anyone left at TAG who was there since the last genuinely new product in 2005 either.... would they even know what to do.
Plus as you say, if you are performing you don't generally go out of your way to push the boundaries... but if you just stagnate where does fresh interest come from. I bet the casual window shopper probably thinks the TAG range hasn't changed in years because what gets in the local jeweller is the same old stuff.
Look at the new Seafarer... almost certainly going to be WOTY... zero genuine innovation. Nothing new. And that's just what the watch community want.

 

[Aquagraph]

But then if you're looking for genuine innovation in watch movements... that's expensive. And would always start off in very expensive watches. Plus I don't know what's left to do. TAG already made a watch that measures a 1000th of a second. So you get into alternative tech like the V4 and the silicon vibrating wotsit. Neither of which really took off...

 

[dtf]

Aquagraph

Look at the new Seafarer... almost certainly going to be WOTY... zero genuine innovation. Nothing new.

IT HAS A BUTTON TO CONTROL THE TIDES

 

[bpsmith]

dtf

IT HAS A BUTTON TO CONTROL THE TIDES

But that’s gonna get proper messy once there’s 967 other people doing the same.

 

[Aquagraph]

dtf

IT HAS A BUTTON TO CONTROL THE TIDES

God complex. Much?

 

[imagwai]

Aquagraph

most don't want innovation they want reissues.

I want both actually. I want Tag to sell some extremely faithful reissues and also innovate and produce genuinely new and exciting watches (not yet another "Carrera").

But I also want them to provide affordable luxury. That is, stop increasing prices to levels I can no longer afford.

 

[Aquagraph]

I do have some sympathy for TAG though. We already know a new model with a new name is instant death. So what are they to do? What they are doing, widen the scope of what a Carrera is... but then the watch community fire 'this is not a Carrera' back at them. Even if they did release a new watch with a different name, it can't be a chronograph, because then it's stepping on the Carreras toes. So I can see why the TAG roster is slowly moving towards being a 4 model collection. In the past they could get wild and crazy with things like the Golf and the Microtimer, but I imagine that would be very expensive to R&D and they probably wouldn't sell many at the 'luxury' prices they now want to charge.

 

[bpsmith]

I agree that it is costly and risky. On the other hand, when these brands are making billions, then they could at least be bringing out at least some risky options at affordable prices, instead of acting like they are on the edge of bankruptcy by cutting costs wherever possible and ramping up prices continually. They are just in it for every possible penny they can make.

Yes, this is their sole reason for existence, I get that, but they romanticise everything else which suggests they are in it for the love of creating great timepieces. They can’t have it both ways!

TAG Heuer are not solely to blame mind you, as this applies across the board, but as mentioned above the collective all allow each other to get away with this by being standard across the board.

 

[imagwai]

Aquagraph

I do have some sympathy for TAG though. We already know a new model with a new name is instant death. So what are they to do? What they are doing, widen the scope of what a Carrera is... but then the watch community fire 'this is not a Carrera' back at them. Even if they did release a new watch with a different name, it can't be a chronograph, because then it's stepping on the Carreras toes. So I can see why the TAG roster is slowly moving towards being a 4 model collection. In the past they could get wild and crazy with things like the Golf and the Microtimer, but I imagine that would be very expensive to R&D and they probably wouldn't sell many at the 'luxury' prices they now want to charge.

I don't necessarily disagree. But then on the other side of the coin, you have Christopher Ward coming out with the Bel Canto and the Twelve. In some genuinely exciting colours. For less money.

 

[paysdoufs]

Jim Dollares

My girlfriend says I am always to blame

Yours too?

 

[paysdoufs]

Aquagraph

(…) Look at the new Seafarer... almost certainly going to be WOTY... zero genuine innovation. Nothing new. And that's just what the watch community want.

I don’t agree. I had the immense privilege of visiting MB&F on Friday. So I can tell you that the Swiss watch “industry” is still very much capable of innovation. Crazy innovation. It’s just that 95% to 99% of people interested in watches cannot afford it.

Among those watches that us peasants CAN afford, I’ll admit that I rather gravitate towards vintage designs. For the simple reason that in the 60s and 70s watches were a cultural “thing” that attracted heaps of excellent designers.

Look at Direnzo watches - e.g. the DRZ06. That’s a pretty fresh design but still with evident throwbacks to the early 70s. Why do you think that is?

 

[Aquagraph]

Because Microbrands have to appeal to the 'watch community' because no one outside the 'watch community' has ever heard of them probably.

 

[Aquagraph]

imagwai

I don't necessarily disagree. But then on the other side of the coin, you have Christopher Ward coming out with the Bel Canto and the Twelve. In some genuinely exciting colours. For less money.

True, but nobody's instantly shooting them down because they don't have the history weighing them down. Quite easy for a brand like that to improve and impress people cos they don't have a Carrera or a Monaco from the past looming over them.

 

[Rizzla36]

bpsmith

Been thinking about this for a while but the latest ABTW article and podcast shows I am not alone in wondering.

Anyway, many of us complain about the lack of interesting innovation, plus the ever increasing pricing over the last couple of years seems inverse to the cost to make such simple pieces with minimal complications.

So the question is who is to blame for this? Is it the watch brands for not taking any risks at the low to mid range, then asking massive 5 or 6 figures for anything with some innovation? Or is it the consumers for continuing to purchase every simple vintage piece that gets released, without expecting much more than the basic complications or finishing levels for our cash?

I mean why would the industry bother to freshen things up, when it would appear that they’re giving the consumer everything they want?

The chicken or the egg…

I blame the hoarders and the watch companies. The watch companies just making slight differences = different colour dial, with slightly different design feature and releasing it and the hoarders who beleive price will keep going up and up and just buying anything and everything that comes out.

There is supposed to be a collapse on the used market and the downturn in economy in theory should be pressuing hoarders to sell off some of their collections. But it doesn't seem to be flowing through.