Live from Basel- Through the Looking Glass...

drunken monkey · Mar 23, 2017

Calibre11
I'm with you- it's the highlight of Basel for me..a really important watch for TAG Heuer

My experience with this sort of watch is that a lot of it will be down to how it feels in the wrist.

Integrated bracelets need to have rattle free and silky smooth articulation in the bracelet or else it'll feel "cheap".

I don't think the bright lights are helping show the bracelet properly, or perhaps more accurately, how the bracelet looks on the wrist.

Calibre11
In my spare time...

I've always considered TAGHeuer to be the Alfa Romeo of the mainstream watch world.

drunken monkey · Mar 23, 2017

I'm actually shocked by the price for the El Primero 21.

I'm not reading wrong, am I?
$10,000-$12,000?

BPD · Mar 23, 2017

Again, well said by everyone here! I have said this before but will again, I appreciate getting everyone's opinions/views on the company. Goes to show that we all have a love for the company regardless if we agree or disagree with the direction it is going. After all, we won't be on Calibre 11 if we didn't care right? And remember, IT"S A WATCH. There are a lot more important things in life ::psy::

drunken monkey · Mar 23, 2017

The thing I get from JCBiver is that his experience with Hublot has given him a particular way of working.

I can't remember where I read it but he doesn't mind doing something and it failing. To him, the important bit is to give it a go and that the company is capable of adapting to suit, whether it succeeds or failures.

The adaptability and the speed at which things can change reflects the "strength" of the company and even though I am not really a fan of what he is doing, the pace at which these things have come to pass is impressive.

With that said, I always get the feeling that there is an element of "we shall see" to any plans he expresses in interviews. His "why not" answers hints at this and it's something I like; that he admits to not knowing exactly what's going on.
This compliments the comfort with trying new things and that the company can quickly change direction if it isn't as successful as hoped.

Of course that doesn't mean we'll see a reduction of the Hublot/Biver style watches (What we're seeing from Zenith tells us what he imagines for the LVMH triumvirate) but it does mean that if the Heritage stuff proves stronger than anticipated, he is one who is willing to change plans if needs be.

Or perhaps I'm just projecting my hopes.

Hubert · Mar 23, 2017

Aquagraph · Mar 23, 2017

abrod520
Well as I've gone to bed and now got up, it looks like @BPD has come up with quite an interesting idea here. Not far from what I'd say myself... Quite like the taglines too.

If it were me, I would at the very least separate the Carrera, Monaco and Autavia lines and return them to their original intended elegance. The Carrera line should not include any watches with external bezels as that was always the province of the Autavia. Look at the current Carrera lineup - how should consumers know what it is when there are elegant 3-hander dress watches with the same name as the 45mm tuna-can Heuer-01? It dilutes what was once a very strong brand

I agree, but surely calling it an Autavia isn't really a good idea either? Shouldn't it have had a new name, a brand new name for a brand new watch? Why are watch companies obsessed with recycling names and lineage? Either that or it should have the courage to say this is the Carrera now and this is how it's going to be.

abrod520
What of the Heuer-01 then indeed? Well, call it an Autavia - it certainly resembles one much more than a Carrera. A quick change to the lugs, from the bastardized versions of the classic Carrera's to the much-desired compressor case lugs, et voila. Pleases those who like the Heuer-01 now, and pleases those who were disappointed in the Autavia reissue's earlier lug design.

As for the Autavia reissue, it's similar enough based on bezel design to indeed share the lineup with the Heuer-01, and could be called the Autavia Heritage or whatnot. See Jaeger-LeCoultre's Master Compressor lineup; it includes their contemporarily-designed sports chronographs with their more elegant-yet-sporty Deep Sea Chronograph models.

I guess there could be TAG Carreras in the Heuer 01 style and Heuer Carreras in the older style, that would make a lot of sense.

abrod520
Before I respond I would like to say that throughout this discussion I have taken care not to make assumptions about you and your affinity for TAG Heuer and would appreciate it if you would afford me the same respect.

I didn't realise I hadn't, if so apologies, sometimes it's hard to keep track of who said what about what, especially when you are at work and responding off the cuff.

abrod520
The argument that TAG Heuers or any other mechanical watch are serious instruments anymore is rather bizarre itself - your smartphone tells time better than any mechanical watch ever could, has a stopwatch mechanism that measures split times to a degree of accuracy that renders TAG's mechanical chronographs useless, even the haute horlogerie models as cool as they may be. (As to the Microtimer, I will respectfully say that a quartz watch, much less a digital one, cannot be discussed in the same terms as mechanical watches.)

These days, watches are purchased mainly for the style, and brands are chosen for the lifestyles and images they evoke. Mechanical watches are at their heart a nostalgic purchase for the reasons above, and a strong brand identity is what people will ultimately look for. Heuer used to be the go-to watch for automobile racing and in some cases aviation, and TAG purchased Heuer partially because of that - remember, Techniques d'Avant Garde used to be a manufacturer of high-performance aviation and motorsport componentry. In fact, your Microtimer comes from a very impressive lineage of TAG Heuer's professional electronic timing equipment, once used by the likes of Formula 1. Yes, even well into the quartz age, TAG Heuer was indeed innovating on the cutting edge of digital timing equipment.

Nowadays, TAG Heuer is no longer very well associated with motorsport, and is now more the Millennial brand. If they think millennials like something, they will plaster their name all over it - Alec Monopoly, Bella Hadid, Cara Delevignge, Gran Turismo. There are those who don't care about this, sure... but those same people won't care to buy another TAG Heuer once they perhaps begin making a bit more money, and are ready to spend more than $5000 on a watch.

I don't think it is so much that they are not so much aligned with motorsport, they are still visible in F1 and much more visible with Red Bull than they ever were with McLaren. Despite the close links with McLaren the branding on the car was usually pretty hard to spot, at least on the Red Bull it's larger and they have the engine naming rights as well. Rather it is that TAG have increased their other activities to push brand awareness. Is it really so different to sponsoring Tiger Woods and Maria Sharapova (sp?), do tennis and golf have much to do with TAG? And what of the likes of Leonardo DiCaprio, was that really so much worse than Steve McQueen, who lets not forget was an 'actor' not an actual racing driver.

I'm not saying I particularly approved of Leo being an ambassador, I couldn't really care less to be honest. Brand ambassadors make not one jot of difference to me, and wouldn't sway me to buy a particular watch or brand over another. To be honest, if I didn't come on here I don't think I'd ever have heard of Alec Monopoly either.

As to those buying watches for more than £5000, well JCB said before that TAG should operate in the £1000-5000 bracket anyway, although then of course he decided to make a £12000 tourbillon. Quite who is going to part with £60k for a diamond bezel tourbillon I have no idea, almost nobody I should think in all honesty.

I'm not really sure I would want to spend more than £5000 on a TAG if I'm honest, I think that's a bit like buying a top of the range Ford when you could get a basic Merc for the same money.

abrod520
Finally, to address your point about TAG Heuer movements. I have no issue with TAG Heuer's in-house movements, haven't heard of any reliability issues etc and my problem lies not with the movements themselves, but the watch designs they're installed in. In fact I think you may be overstating the importance of TAG's in-house movements, as their competitors all have their own designs with more being developed every day. Tudor, for instance, has begun rolling out in-house movements across most of its range and just introduced an in-house column wheel chronograph movement that will be sold for around $5000 - and will be shared with Breitling. Omega (yes, once again) has its own whole line of in-house movements, from 3-handers to chronographs, at a number of price points. I would not consider TAG Heuer's use of in-house movements to be a differentiator at all, much less a major one. (Nevermind that to the casual purchaser, TAG's Heuer-01 / 1887 movement appears to be the same as the ETA 7750 they use in the very same Carrera lineup, at a much lower price point)

Sorry I can't remember what I said about the in house movement... and it's very late. I think the whole in house thing is a bit of marketing nonsense to be honest, David addressed this in his interview with JCB and he said pretty much the same thing. But that's what the market demands now, even if the (mass) market doesn't actually know if it's better or worse.

To be honest I have a Calibre 16, a Calibre 60 and a Heuer 01 and it doesn't particularly bother me, they all seem to work and does it really matter to me if TAG designed them themselves? No. I think maybe my point may have been that Rolex and Omega fans have this thing about TAG being inferior despite TAG producing some award winning movements, but I could be mistaken.

Actually, speaking of the Breitling/Omega thing, I'm surprised more watch companies aren't doing this kind of thing. It's common practice for car companies to work together to make a chassis they can both use, so why not watch companies?

Aquagraph · Mar 23, 2017

drunken monkey
The thing I get from JCBiver is that his experience with Hublot has given him a particular way of working.

I can't remember where I read it but he doesn't mind doing something and it failing. To him, the important bit is to give it a go and that the company is capable of adapting to suit, whether it succeeds or failures.

The adaptability and the speed at which things can change reflects the "strength" of the company and even though I am not really a fan of what he is doing, the pace at which these things have come to pass is impressive.

With that said, I always get the feeling that there is an element of "we shall see" to any plans he expresses in interviews. His "why not" answers hints at this and it's something I like; that he admits to not knowing exactly what's going on.
This compliments the comfort with trying new things and that the company can quickly change direction if it isn't as successful as hoped.

Of course that doesn't mean we'll see a reduction of the Hublot/Biver style watches (What we're seeing from Zenith tells us what he imagines for the LVMH triumvirate) but it does mean that if the Heritage stuff proves stronger than anticipated, he is one who is willing to change plans if needs be.

Or perhaps I'm just projecting my hopes.

Good points, I think you are right, JCB does contradict himself sometimes, but he definitely has an overall vision, he then seems to fine tune it along the way when he sees the lay of the land. I think what he has done in a short space of time is incredible and the complete anathema of most of the Swiss industry and Rolex in particular.

abrod520 · Mar 24, 2017

Aquagraph
I agree, but surely calling it an Autavia isn't really a good idea either? Shouldn't it have had a new name, a brand new name for a brand new watch? Why are watch companies obsessed with recycling names and lineage? Either that or it should have the courage to say this is the Carrera now and this is how it's going to be.

Well, the Autavia was Heuer's first model to feature an external bezel, an innovation intended to increase readability at speed. Since the Heuer-01 (and the Calibre 16) feature external bezels - something which the Carrera line never did - they would fit better under the Autavia line as they share more design cues with what the Autavia always had been.

As to names and lineage - TAG recycles names not unlike IP relaunch brands such as Blancpain or Panerai; other watch companies have continued their lines. Omega Speedmaster, Rolex Submariner - these are not recycled, they've been evolved from the successful lineage of past models and made more modern. The only reason Carrera and Autavia are now recycled names is because TAG turned their backs on what made them great in the first place, and are now (Autavia) and intermittently since the 1990s (Carrera) realizing what a mistake that was and how strong a name can be.

For another example, look at the new Ford Mustang. It has the same basic concept as it once did but is very different, yet is successful because Ford understands the importance of the name and the basic styling cues. But that wasn't always the case - did you know that the Ford Probe was intended to replace the Mustang, using the best brand-new 1990s technology and design? It was rejected because people didn't necessarily want a newer, better sports car - they wanted a Mustang.

Aquagraph
I guess there could be TAG Carreras in the Heuer 01 style and Heuer Carreras in the older style, that would make a lot of sense.

Yes, if not naming them the Autavia, then this would work as well! This is what I'm trying to say - TAG need not be only for you or only for me. With a bit of actual effort it could be for both of us. I am disappointed that they have not made this effort except in a half-hearted way so far.

Aquagraph
And what of the likes of Leonardo DiCaprio, was that really so much worse than Steve McQueen, who lets not forget was an 'actor' not an actual racing driver.

Steve McQueen actually did indeed race cars in his free time, and often scheduled movie shoots around major races. Now, he wasn't the best driver out there, but he didn't do it for show. TAG Heuer uses his likeness in marketing materials because of his association with the Monaco, which he specifically requested for his character in 'Le Mans' because all of the drivers who were his mentors and his advisors in the making of the movie wore Heuers. In fact if you watch 'Le Mans' closely you can see a ton of Heuer chronographs on the wrists of drivers as well as stopwatches in the pits. Important to note is that Steve McQueen chose to be an ambassador of sorts for Heuer, not the other way around.

Aquagraph
Brand ambassadors make not one jot of difference to me, and wouldn't sway me to buy a particular watch or brand over another.

Good, a point we agree on! I don't care for the brand ambassador concept, though I can get behind choosing athletes or other people who do things. That makes more sense to me.

Aquagraph
I'm not really sure I would want to spend more than £5000 on a TAG if I'm honest, I think that's a bit like buying a top of the range Ford when you could get a basic Merc for the same money.

There's a reason why you can't buy a Mercury anymore - people didn't want to pay luxury prices for a tarted-up Ford. Of course, people now pay Mercury prices for top of the range Fords because Ford put in a ton of effort to get its quality issues straightened out, roll out a coherent styling language across all of their models, and embrace their heritage by looking to past successes for direction on styling and projects. Even going so far as to develop (and, so importantly, race!) limited-volume halo projects that will only be sold, at a loss, to a few hardcore nerds.

Aquagraph
I think the whole in house thing is a bit of marketing nonsense to be honest, David addressed this in his interview with JCB and he said pretty much the same thing. But that's what the market demands now, even if the (mass) market doesn't actually know if it's better or worse.

Another point on which we agree.

Aquagraph
To be honest I have a Calibre 16, a Calibre 60 and a Heuer 01 and it doesn't particularly bother me, they all seem to work and does it really matter to me if TAG designed them themselves? No. I think maybe my point may have been that Rolex and Omega fans have this thing about TAG being inferior despite TAG producing some award winning movements, but I could be mistaken.

Could be, I don't see this over at the Omega Forums though so it could be more of a WUS thing? I know many of the Rolex forums can be quite pretentious, but then I think a lot of Rolex fans think anything that isn't a Rolex is inferior, not just TAG. Feel free to search through my posts here or at OF though, and you'll not find anything from me about TAG movements....

Aquagraph
Actually, speaking of the Breitling/Omega thing, I'm surprised more watch companies aren't doing this kind of thing. It's common practice for car companies to work together to make a chassis they can both use, so why not watch companies?

It wasn't uncommon in the past, the Chronomatic movement was famously jointly developed by Heuer, Breitling, Hamilton and Buren. I think we'll see this become more common as brands move towards using their own in-house movements; it likely hasn't been as common before now because of the use of standard ebauches from ETA, Sellita etc (which are now becoming more restricted). It'll be interesting to see what else these movements find their way into for sure.

BPD · Mar 24, 2017

Wow! Now that is a whole lot of writing there abrod520! But as always excellent points. However, I would have to disagree with a couple of points.

In-house: Yes, to some degree it's marketing but with the ever increasing prices for watches nowadays, I think people would like to see that what they are paying for has some thought and innovation to it. To slap an ETA or Sellita movement into a watch and charging $5,000 plus is a bit lazy no? Image the horror that would happen if you were to buy a Range Rover and then finding out the engine in it is the same engine in a Tata.

I was at a watch wholesaler earlier this month to pick up some Polywatch and was able to see the vast amount of ETA & Sellita movements for sale. The going price....$100 for the most basic of movements to $500 for the most complicated. They even had the same movement for sale that is currently in the Monaco Calibre 11 for $200! So, how much did I pay for my Monaco? I was once a non in-house believer but as the competition along with the ever growing prices, I do appreciate that when I pay x amount for a watch I know that my money is going to a company that actually made the core if not the whole watch themselves.

When I bought my Seamaster 300 Master Co-Axial & Speedmaster 1861, I didn’t mind paying the prices I did because Omega actually took the time to do the R&D to make the movements. For the record, I once called Omegas overpriced Swatches but now owning the Master Co-Axial movement, I take it all back; yes I was a fool.

Another example would be Rolex. Now people would knock Rolex for being overpriced, boring & uninspiring watches but you know what, every part of a Rolex from what I can see is made or assembled by them in-house. So when I bought my Submariner, I didn’t mind paying what I did.

BTW, I read a comment somewhere that TAG’s metal bracelets are made in China. This has been bothering me so if someone could give with an answer, that would be great!

Brand Ambassadors: Image is everything so when TAG has a masked man holding spray cans, what do you think people will think?

A) TAG is so cool! They have a masked guy that will spray paint my watch when I buy it

B) dude is going to rob me of my money, I’m staying away!

I’ll ask you guys this. If someone like Alex Monopoly became your company’s new Ambassador how would you feel? How would you think your clients/customers will feel? I work for an investment firm and boy, if this dude was our new ambassador, it would be the market crash of 2008 x 1000….And don’t tell me that your company is not going after the same market as TAG. Remember, TAG has never BEEN this company until recently with this reimaging.

BPD · Mar 24, 2017

Sorry, forgot to mention that I also did called Omega along with Rolex owners douchebags. Not exactly taking it back but will revise it to 'some Omega & Rolex owners'.

Enjoy F1 this weekend guys! Go new Canadian driver! Just don't make the same cocky mistake as Jacques Villeneuve please!

imagwai · Mar 24, 2017

BPD
Image the horror that would happen if you were to buy a Range Rover and then finding out the engine in it is the same engine in a Tata.

Not really a good comparison, unless you happen to think that Sellita and ETA are sub-standard movements. What about people who buy a new Alfa Giulia and then find out that the engine isn't developed by Alfa but it's actually engineered by Ferrari? I doubt they'd be quite as hacked off. Not that I'm saying ETA is Ferrari, but it's certainly no Tata.

BPD said:
I’ll ask you guys this. If someone like Alex Monopoly became your company’s new Ambassador how would you feel?

Embarrassed and disappointed. But not altogether surprised if the CEO was Justin Bieber.

BPD said:
Sorry, forgot to mention that I also did called Omega along with Rolex owners douchebags. Not exactly taking it back but will revise it to 'some Omega & Rolex owners'.

Thanks for clarifying. Being an owner of an Omega, a Rolex AND a Tag, I was beginning to have an identity crisis. Couldn't work out if I was a douchebag or not.

imagwai · Mar 24, 2017

abrod520
Man, compare these to Omega's 60th Anniversary pieces.... night and day.

I must confess, the 1957 Speedmaster is calling to me. Sensible size, hesalite, hand-wound movement. Only the price is putting me off.

BPD · Mar 24, 2017

imagwai
I must confess, the 1957 Speedmaster is calling to me. Sensible size, hesalite, hand-wound movement. Only the price is putting me off.

Better check the crystal if you do decide to buy. I'm pretty sure it's sapphire and not hesitate.

abrod520 · Mar 24, 2017

imagwai
I must confess, the 1957 Speedmaster is calling to me. Sensible size, hesalite, hand-wound movement. Only the price is putting me off.

The price isn't too far off from that of a usual LE Speedmaster, and this one's fantastic. Besides, it's essentially a $150k watch for about $7k, at least visually. I myself will be trying to get my hands on a Railmaster; I already have a Speedy Tuesday reserved and I'm not sure if I'll be able to afford both

BPD
Better check the crystal if you do decide to buy. I'm pretty sure it's sapphire and not hesitate.

It's almost certainly hesalite, but Omega has released boutique preview documents with sapphire specified. I think it's hesalite on the website though.

abrod520 · Mar 24, 2017

BPD
In-house: Yes, to some degree it's marketing but with the ever increasing prices for watches nowadays, I think people would like to see that what they are paying for has some thought and innovation to it. To slap an ETA or Sellita movement into a watch and charging $5,000 plus is a bit lazy no? Image the horror that would happen if you were to buy a Range Rover and then finding out the engine in it is the same engine in a Tata.

Well, despite the cost difference ETA movements are proven to be reliable. A better analogy is the Mazda RX-7. Let's say Mazda had two versions of the RX-7 on sale, one with their rotary engine and one with a Chevrolet LS engine. Rotary engines are cool and unique, but have a lifetime of between 100-150k miles before a full rebuild is necessary - and you will have to locate a tech who is capable of working on them, which is quite rare.

On the other hand, you have the boring old LS engine, which makes wayyy more power than the rotary, costs far less, and will likely outlive you.

Most important, if your LS breaks down for some reason, you can have it serviced at any GM dealer, and basically just about any private shop. You can shop around to find the best shop with the best rates, which will be far far lower than the rates for the rotary specialist.

And then, what if Mazda goes out of business in the future and no longer produces spare parts for rotary engines...? Sure, GM could go out of business as well, but there are more than enough LS engines you can easily cannibalize for parts if need be. This is essentially the case with ETA / Sellita movements vs. in-house.

So, in-houses are definitely cool, and do indeed lend a certain credibility to a watch model or brand, but there are advantages to buying watches with proven, reliable off-the-shelf movements.

BPD
Now people would knock Rolex for being overpriced, boring & uninspiring watches but you know what, every part of a Rolex from what I can see is made or assembled by them in-house. So when I bought my Submariner, I didn’t mind paying what I did.

I don't care for any modern Rolex model as I find them a bit too blingy for my tastes, but it would be a mistake to dismiss them out of hand since they are a formidable builder of quality, dependable watches. Hopefully someday they'll go back to the simple lovely designs of the 1016 or 1675.

As far as Alex Monopoly is concerned, I imagine he must be popular with millennials? (As one myself, this mystifies me, but then I'm a watch nerd) TAG has concerned itself by thirstily chasing any brand ambassador who they think will be popular with millennials, without having any common thread between them other than that they likely have massive Instagram follower counts. I don't think this is a cohesive strategy and likely won't make a whit of difference since most millennials have well-documented financial struggles given the current state of the world economy, the rising costs of living / housing / education but stagnant earnings etc.

I do like the Lego man though!

BPD · Mar 24, 2017

abrod520
Well, despite the cost difference ETA movements are proven to be reliable. A better analogy is the Mazda RX-7. Let's say Mazda had two versions of the RX-7 on sale, one with their rotary engine and one with a Chevrolet LS engine. Rotary engines are cool and unique, but have a lifetime of between 100-150k miles before a full rebuild is necessary - and you will have to locate a tech who is capable of working on them, which is quite rare.

On the other hand, you have the boring old LS engine, which makes wayyy more power than the rotary, costs far less, and will likely outlive you.

Most important, if your LS breaks down for some reason, you can have it serviced at any GM dealer, and basically just about any private shop. You can shop around to find the best shop with the best rates, which will be far far lower than the rates for the rotary specialist.

And then, what if Mazda goes out of business in the future and no longer produces spare parts for rotary engines...? Sure, GM could go out of business as well, but there are more than enough LS engines you can easily cannibalize for parts if need be. This is essentially the case with ETA / Sellita movements vs. in-house.

So, in-houses are definitely cool, and do indeed lend a certain credibility to a watch model or brand, but there are advantages to buying watches with proven, reliable off-the-shelf movements.

I don't care for any modern Rolex model as I find them a bit too blingy for my tastes, but it would be a mistake to dismiss them out of hand since they are a formidable builder of quality, dependable watches. Hopefully someday they'll go back to the simple lovely designs of the 1016 or 1675.

As far as Alex Monopoly is concerned, I imagine he must be popular with millennials? (As one myself, this mystifies me, but then I'm a watch nerd) TAG has concerned itself by thirstily chasing any brand ambassador who they think will be popular with millennials, without having any common thread between them other than that they likely have massive Instagram follower counts. I don't think this is a cohesive strategy and likely won't make a whit of difference since most millennials have well-documented financial struggles given the current state of the world economy, the rising costs of living / housing / education but stagnant earnings etc.

I do like the Lego man though!

Ok, another analogy. Would you buy from this old man:

Or this old man:

abrod520 · Mar 24, 2017

BPD
Ok, another analogy. Would you buy from this old man:

Or this old man:

Hah -if only we could still buy watches from the former! Now that he's retired and only rolled out as a figurehead from time to time though, it appears we're stuck with the latter - bandanna and all...

BPD · Mar 24, 2017

abrod520
Hah -if only we could still buy watches from the former! Now that he's retired and only rolled out as a figurehead from time to time though, it appears we're stuck with the latter - bandanna and all...

Hey abroad520, I see that you & I are pimping ourselves between here and the OmegaForum👍

I don't know what you're doing over there but I'm trying to spread some love for TAG!

abrod520 · Mar 24, 2017

BPD
Hey abroad520, I see that you & I are pimping ourselves between here and the OmegaForum👍

I don't know what you're doing over there but I'm trying to spread some love for TAG!

I showed up at OF after buying an old Speedmaster, but that place is a whole community, not just for Omega owners / lovers. Why not stick around a bit, you might like it 😀

Oh, and set yourself an avatar image!

BPD · Mar 24, 2017

abrod520
I showed up at OF after buying an old Speedmaster, but that place is a whole community, not just for Omega owners / lovers. Why not stick around a bit, you might like it 😀

Oh, and set yourself an avatar image!

Need to be discreet man. After calling Omega owners dbs, there's a crazy Canadian in there calling for my head! So it's hit & run for me!

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