Forums Latest Members
  1. blubarb

    blubarb May 24, 2022

    Posts
    3,127
    Likes
    6,145
    Hi all.

    I am hoping you find this watch as interesting and intriguing as I have.

    Perhaps you might be able to add to the story approaching it from the Lemania cal. 1341 side of things. Maybe even narrowing the time frame within the broader 70s or early 80s.

    As you see it is stamped 9801-72 on the inside case back which I believe is a Lemania model reference and It is definitely powered by the Lemania 1341. The case is similar to the Heuer Montreal and the Lemania 1970s Auto-chrono cushion case.

    I have heard that that the Lemania serials 3.5xx.xxx date to around 1981/82, and if so, that would make some sense as that's when Lemania was in control of HEUER.

    I have been unable to find a similar Heuer production example, so I am beginning to think it may possibly be a some kind of Prototype by Lemania/Heuer c. 1982-83 that never saw production given the small window of ownership by Lemania.

    I don't believe it's an assembly of parts as the dial is unique, the case not so much and the Lemania is all present and accounted for. The Heuer dial and hands all appear authentic.

    The inside case back with the Lemania reference 9801-72 I would like to know more about and the serial might hold the key to pinning down the date somewhat.

    Any thoughts as to whether or not this serial number and the Lemania reference is an indication of the early 1980s?

    It has a had a little cleanup. The white inner tacky ring has replaced the original black one (which is in my possession).

    Thanks for reading and I look forward to your comments, fellow HEUER WIS. :D


    Screen Shot 2022-05-18 at 12.47.21 pm.png
    Screen Shot 2022-05-18 at 12.44.04 pm.png

    Screen Shot 2022-05-18 at 12.44.22 pm.png
    IMG_2985.jpeg
    IMG_2986.jpeg


    Screen Shot 2022-05-23 at 10.16.20 pm.png

    Screen Shot 2022-05-24 at 3.15.56 pm.png
     
    Edited Oct 30, 2022
  2. imagwai

    imagwai May 24, 2022

    Posts
    4,977
    Likes
    5,645
    Looks like a bit of a concoction. I think there are some genuine Heuer parts there. But that movement looks like it's had Heuer scrawled on it and isn't original. I think it's a franken watch unfortunately.
     
  3. blubarb

    blubarb May 24, 2022

    Posts
    3,127
    Likes
    6,145
    Thanks for your comment.
    Have you ever seen a Heuer dial similar to this, @imagwai?
     
  4. blubarb

    blubarb May 24, 2022

    Posts
    3,127
    Likes
    6,145
    A very poor photo from a distance making it look like it's the HEUER has been scratched on. Here is a pic I just took. When you see it under the loupe it is definitely imprinted as it should be.

    View attachment 1419911 Screen Shot 2022-05-24 at 9.55.13 pm.png

    What I do find of interest is that the Omega symbol and the imprint of the Ω1041on the base plate. I know that Omega used Lemania for their 861 movements but weren't they stamped Ω861?
    Screen Shot 2022-05-24 at 9.55.28 pm.png
     
    Edited May 26, 2022
  5. imagwai

    imagwai May 24, 2022

    Posts
    4,977
    Likes
    5,645
    OK, so I thought this was franken as I didn't really recognise it, although many elements look familiar. I noticed that in one of your photos, it's written "Heuer Cal 1040 chronograph" on the plastic bag the black tachy bezel is in. Well the 1040 was Omega's movement (basically an Omega version of the Lemania 1340). The rotor looks very similar to the Omega but of course with Heuer written on it instead. Of course the Omega shows a similar subdial layout to yours, but I also note the similarity of the handset (although your photos show two different styles in the before and after renovation photos - were they repainted?).
    s-l400.jpg

    To answer your question, I've never seen a dial like yours on a Heuer before, or at least I don't think I have.
     
    blubarb likes this.
  6. imagwai

    imagwai May 24, 2022

    Posts
    4,977
    Likes
    5,645
    blubarb likes this.
  7. blubarb

    blubarb May 25, 2022

    Posts
    3,127
    Likes
    6,145
    thanks @imagwai that's helped me tie up some loose knots.

    "It's highly doubtful Heuer would have used an Omega-exclusive Lemania movement in their watches."

    Yep definitely a cal1041 plate is in there. I have solved that part of the mystery. I can now confirm that the movement is a Cal1341. The base plate was replaced with a rhodium c.1041 plate. I have the original on hold for my collection. So yes, you were correct in saying that it would be highly unlikely that Heuer would have used an Omega exclusive movement. Thanks for that clue.
     
    Edited Oct 30, 2022
  8. imagwai

    imagwai May 25, 2022

    Posts
    4,977
    Likes
    5,645
    I'm really no expert, but that article I linked has a really good comparison table of the different movements (1040 vs 1041 vs 1340 vs 1341). They're all related but there are some differences. Search the article for "Omega 1040 and 1041 vs. Lemania 1340 and 1341"
     
    blubarb likes this.
  9. blubarb

    blubarb Oct 30, 2022

    Posts
    3,127
    Likes
    6,145
    I would like to give this a bit of a bump with the following, hoping someone can add something.

    this watch has really piqued some interest. The experienced Swiss trained watchmakers who have had the opportunity to see it personally "in the flesh" if you will, cannot find anything to suggest the dial has been faked, but if were it's an exceptional; superb one. I believe the case and movement can be concluded as a correct fit

    Could this have been a one off special order in the early 1970s or 80s, similar to the Lemania Marlboro edition and the Audi editions (though I believe there were 100 of those produced in the early 1970s). Just a guess of course. In regards the lume: There is a small amount of phosphorous to keep the tritium weakly charged for about 10-15 secs, if that. So I am convinced the watch dial is pre-1990.

    One interesting set of facts I came across recently (apologies as I know Heuer experts are clearly aware of this), suggests that the success of the 1960s Chronograph was seen as a boon to the Swiss watch industry in the 1960s, with 50,000 + units sold in 1964 to more than 170,000 in 1969. However, it appears, that this was not enough for the 70s and a "new boost was needed. An automatic chronograph was the solution." It was the Central Minutes Chronograph that was ostensibly going to be that boost. It appears there was a move by many watch brands to get these produced and onto the market including Lemania, Bucherer, Tissot, Dugena, Darwil, Mate, Nivada, et al. but using the cal.1340 (or possibly 1341?). Now, purely supposition here of course, but is it possible that Heuer, not to miss out, created a one off dial to investigate the use of a central minutes chronograph but events overtook them as the "Quartz invasion" became unrelenting. Could this account for the early 70s Case and the Cal. 1341? I can see it put together as a one-off but not into production. However, I can't see Heuer wanting to use a Lemania when the Valjoux was their goto movement and having to go into R & D to develop their own would have been difficult in terms of funding at that time. Just guessing of course.

    I believe that In the mid 70s Heuer produced the Chronosplit and maybe they backed that over the Minutes Chrono in those years? I know they followed up in 1977 with the auto chronos Kentucky and Pasadena models using the Valjoux 7750, but these are three-register chronos.

    I believe that Tag-Heuer, In the early to mid-1980s, began using the less expensive Lemania 5100 movement when the Heuer/Lemania unison was in place.

    I know that this all sounds like a long bow drawn, and of course pure speculation, but as of now I have to accept the majority watchmakers view that the dial is genuine. Right now the Tag Heuer factory is kind enough to look into what records they have. I am extremely keen to hear what they conclude.

    Why fake a Heuer dial and Case back when there would be no financial advantage that I can see in doing so in the 1980s?

    So if anyone has anything to add PLEASE DO - no matter how inconsequential it may seem.

    I have yet to request a view from Lemania via the Swatch Group, But that is next on my list in an attempt to resolve the veracity of this piece, if ever possible. :thumbsup:

    ps. This is the Heuer Marlboro Lemania cal. 1341

    Screen Shot 2022-10-30 at 12.15.05 pm.png

    The Audi/Lemania Heuer (most likely the cal. 1341 also)

    Screen Shot 2022-10-30 at 9.33.04 pm.png
     
    Edited Oct 30, 2022