Grinding/Gritty Feeling on crown when wound, Cal. 11/12 Automatic Chronograph

gt350mk · Feb 10, 2018

Hello Fellow Heuer and Watch Aficionados,

I have a Heuer Daytona and a Dugena Calibre12/11 respectively that produce a gritty/ Grinding sensation when winding both watches. I know this shouldn’t be because the Daytona wound like any other Automatic watch when I first got it (or at least that’s how I remember it) until I wound it to its maximum. The Dugena came that way. I sent in the Daytona to a local and “renowned” watch maker who not only didn’t fix the winding problem but handled it in such a way that two hour markers are missing some paint and seemed to have removed some paint from the minute timers a “fair” sum of $650.00. I digress. Two different watch makers in Colorado claimed that the watch is working as designed (the guy who damaged the dial claimed these watches cannot be wound like some Seikos). I do not wind either watch with the crown since it feels as if I’m grinding gear teeth. Are the Calibre 11/12 watches supposed to work as such when winding the watch - a gritty grinding feeling? My theory is that the spring of the lever making contact with the main spring gear has either broke or came off the gear disallowing any positive engagement of the winding train. I am a novice watch maker, but a seasoned mechanic and this condition reminds me of a damaged ring and or pinion gear grinding when manually moving an axel on an automotive rear end. I’m not sure how to proceed. I decased the Daytona and was about to remove the hands but chickened out as I love that watch and don’t want to hurt her anymore and the Dugena is in such great condition (rating an A+) that I can’t bring myself to open her up. Any thoughts? If my theory is correct regarding a partial disengagement of the winding train, would it be worth attempting? Are these calibers know for clutch and winding gear issues? I have an obsession and compulsion with these watches that it stresses me that they might not be working as designed. SOS.
Thank you all,
Marc K

MRC · Feb 10, 2018

G gt350mk
Hello Fellow Heuer and Watch Aficionados,

I have a Heuer Daytona and a Dugena Calibre12/11 respectively that produce a gritty/ Grinding sensation when winding both watches.

Are these calibers know for clutch and winding gear issues? I have an obsession and compulsion with these watches that it stresses me that they might not be working as designed. SOS.

Cannot help with the possible cause of the problem, but my Cal 11 Hamilton winds smooth as silk. It may be that there is a generic problem because Michael Stockton at Fratello Watches reports a gritty feel for his Cal 11 Hamilton too https://www.fratellowatches.com/tbt-hamilton-chrono-matic/. Mine was recently serviced by Rich Askham in the UK for a lot less than you were charged http://thewatchspotblog.com/?p=5107

Mike

abrod520 · Feb 10, 2018

Hard to say I really understand what "gritty" means in this context - I have a number of Chronomatic movement watches, and all have some feedback when hand-winding. It could be described as gritty I suppose, in that there is a distinct "winding" feeling going on (though not as notchy as an actual manual-wind watch) but that's normal. Are you finding that it's difficult to wind your watches?

Pitfitter446 · Feb 10, 2018

I had a similar feeling on one of mine-a rough/notchy feeling- dropped into my local AD, 2 minutes and some watch grease? applied to the spindle seal and, sorted, happy bunny and no charge for the fix.

gt350mk · Feb 10, 2018

abrod520
Hard to say I really understand what "gritty" means in this context - I have a number of Chronomatic movement watches, and all have some feedback when hand-winding. It could be described as gritty I suppose, in that there is a distinct "winding" feeling going on (though not as notchy as an actual manual-wind watch) but that's normal. Are you finding that it's difficult to wind your watches?

Hello and thanks for your reply.
When I go to wind the watches it feels as though gear teeth are not meshing completely or correctly so there is this grinding feeling like the gear tips are pacing over one another, but since the gears have very little room to move they grind. It isn’t as a result of mainspring releasing to prevent excessive winding. It like the tips of two gears are rubbing against their tips. It hard to explain. I’ve had many automatic watches and these are the first to make me uneasy about winding the watches. I was told this is as designed but I can’t image so. I would think that customers would steer clear of movements that feel like they are wearing themselves to destruction. I think that the watch makers are covering their butts since they advertise they can work on any watch, but obviously can’t.

Thank you,
Marc

gt350mk · Feb 10, 2018

Pitfitter446
I had a similar feeling on one of mine-a rough/notchy feeling- dropped into my local AD, 2 minutes and some watch grease? applied to the spindle seal and, sorted, happy bunny and no charge for the fix.

Thank you for responding,

If possible could you send a picture of that or something that would lead me to the spindle seal. Do you know what type of grease was used? I was thinking I was going to have to remove the dial and possibly date wheel. I am going to give this a shot tomorrow.

Thank you again,
Marc

abrod520 · Feb 11, 2018

G gt350mk
It hard to explain. I’ve had many automatic watches and these are the first to make me uneasy about winding the watches.

I'm still not quite able to grasp what you mean, but in any case - if you feel like you are forcing the crown in order to wind the watch, don't! You could end up damaging it. In the meantime, you can always wind it via rotation, either on a watch winder or on your wrist.

G gt350mk
I think that the watch makers are covering their butts since they advertise they can work on any watch, but obviously can’t.

Unfortunately, though these watches are beautiful and worth keeping alive, the truth is that the Chronomatic movement is very difficult to work on. This is due to its modular design - you can google "modular chronograph" for a better explanation than I am able to give right now.
Most honest watchmakers will tell you up front that they either prefer not to work on them, or outright refuse to do so. You can try reaching out to Craig at Chronodeco, who is considered the top watchmaker for these movements in the US. You may have to pay quite a bit and wait quite a while, but he will ensure your watch is working properly.

gt350mk · Feb 11, 2018

MRC
Cannot help with the possible cause of the problem, but my Cal 11 Hamilton winds smooth as silk. It may be that there is a generic problem because Michael Stockton at Fratello Watches reports a gritty feel for his Cal 11 Hamilton too https://www.fratellowatches.com/tbt-hamilton-chrono-matic/. Mine was recently serviced by Rich Askham in the UK for a lot less than you were charged http://thewatchspotblog.com/?p=5107

Mike

abrod520
I'm still not quite able to grasp what you mean, but in any case - if you feel like you are forcing the crown in order to wind the watch, don't! You could end up damaging it. In the meantime, you can always wind it via rotation, either on a watch winder or on your wrist.

Unfortunately, though these watches are beautiful and worth keeping alive, the truth is that the Chronomatic movement is very difficult to work on. This is due to its modular design - you can google "modular chronograph" for a better explanation than I am able to give right now.
Most honest watchmakers will tell you up front that they either prefer not to work on them, or outright refuse to do so. You can try reaching out to Craig at Chronodeco, who is considered the top watchmaker for these movements in the US. You may have to pay quite a bit and wait quite a while, but he will ensure your watch is working properly.

When I go to wind the watch with the crown on the left dial up, winding counter clockwise there is a grinding sensation. Winding clockwise feels fine and I hear just a faint clicking which is part of the click assembly that prevents the main spring from unwinding. It feels like gear teeth are grinding against one another. I know it shouldn’t behave that way since my Daytona operated smoothly when winding until one of the movement screws came loose and feel into the balance area. I wound it to the max. When I brought it to the watch maker he pulled out the screw in the balance area and it started right up, but no watchmaker will admit it is not working as designed which is B.S since I don’t think the public would buy a watch that feels like it’s killing itself.

gt350mk · Feb 11, 2018

G gt350mk
When I go to wind the watch with the crown on the left dial up, winding counter clockwise there is a grinding sensation. Winding clockwise feels fine and I hear just a faint clicking which is part of the click assembly that prevents the main spring from unwinding. It feels like gear teeth are grinding against one another. I know it shouldn’t behave that way since my Daytona operated smoothly when winding until one of the movement screws came loose and feel into the balance area. I wound it to the max. When I brought it to the watch maker he pulled out the screw in the balance area and it started right up, but no watchmaker will admit it is not working as designed which is B.S since I don’t think the public would buy a watch that feels like it’s killing itself.

Gambba · Feb 11, 2018

Checked my Calibre 12 this morning, counterclockwise it has a faint ratchet feel, which obviously prevents it being wound.
Clockwise it has a much stronger ratchet feel (a quite gritty feel to it) when it is being wound up.

Mine feels exactly as @abrod520 described above.

gt350mk · Feb 12, 2018

Gambba
Checked my Calibre 12 this morning, counterclockwise it has a faint ratchet feel, which obviously prevents it being wound.
Clockwise it has a much stronger ratchet feel (a quite gritty feel to it) when it is being wound up.

Mine feels exactly as @abrod520 described above.

Hello Guys,
I’m getting to the bottom of this since no mechanical watch I’ve ever owned felt like gears grinding when winding the main spring which includes Seiko, Tissot, some unknown brand with an ETA movement (2824), other Tag Heuer watches (except for a Tag Heuer GMT reissue that was fixed when sent to Tag). My belief is that part of the winding clutch train isn’t right which I came across once on a simple 17 jewel, no complication, Helios when reassembling it. One thing I noted is that the Daytona doesn’t wind the main spring any more by winding. My Dugena does but I think if I continue it will cause a failure. I suggest that those that have the grinding/ gritty/un-normal winding feeling to stop winding them and let the automatic gear train wind the watch. The only other person to note this publicly was the guy who has the Hamilton Chrono Matic as noted in one of the hyperlinks in this thread. My finding this week was that the dude who claimed to have fixed the Daytona sent it to this other watch maker I just met since he seems to say things that about the Daytona and he mostly works on Rolexes and pawn shop stuff (who has a box of Rolexes?) He did a good job restoring a first gen sea wolf but didn’t fix its wacky amplitude. Anyone else who has anything to say about this please chime in as I’m going to perform exploratory surgery this week.

Thanks gang,
Marc KAY
P.S if you live in Colorado keep your watches away from Vic whose on Yelp. I made a huge mistake in giving him the watch to repair since he messed up the dial a bit, charged me $650. and lost one of the movement clamps and told me it was not an automatic watch even though I showed him the dial. Hard lesson learned.

gt350mk · Feb 12, 2018

abrod520
I'm still not quite able to grasp what you mean, but in any case - if you feel like you are forcing the crown in order to wind the watch, don't! You could end up damaging it. In the meantime, you can always wind it via rotation, either on a watch winder or on your wrist.

Unfortunately, though these watches are beautiful and worth keeping alive, the truth is that the Chronomatic movement is very difficult to work on. This is due to its modular design - you can google "modular chronograph" for a better explanation than I am able to give right now.
Most honest watchmakers will tell you up front that they either prefer not to work on them, or outright refuse to do so. You can try reaching out to Craig at Chronodeco, who is considered the top watchmaker for these movements in the US. You may have to pay quite a bit and wait quite a while, but he will ensure your watch is working properly.

http://thoughts.onthedash.com/thoughts/chronomatic-disassembly/

Check this out. I’m going to take the literal leap and remove the Chrono module and try and troubleshoot the problem. Wish luck!

abrod520 · Feb 12, 2018

G gt350mk
When I go to wind the watch with the crown on the left dial up, winding counter clockwise there is a grinding sensation. Winding clockwise feels fine and I hear just a faint clicking which is part of the click assembly that prevents the main spring from unwinding. It feels like gear teeth are grinding against one another.

Ah - I have a feeling then that your watch may be just fine. Despite the fact that the winding crown is on the left, the Chronomatic movements still wind clockwise - so if you wind counter-clockwise, the crown should move smoothly (no resistance whatsoever) with a very faint ratcheting noise. Wound clockwise (I usually do so by keeping the watch dial-up, but turning it upside-down so the crown is on the right) you'll encounter some resistance in the crown as you wind it, and a definite "grinding" noise and sensation as the spring is wound up, not unlike winding a manual-wind watch. However, while it will take some firmness to do, the crown shouldn't resist winding - so if you feel like you have to force it, don't.

Pitfitter446 · Feb 12, 2018

G gt350mk
Thank you for responding,

If possible could you send a picture of that or something that would lead me to the spindle seal. Do you know what type of grease was used? I was thinking I was going to have to remove the dial and possibly date wheel. I am going to give this a shot tomorrow.

Thank you again,
Marc

I believe the spindle seal is on the outer edge of the case where the winder spindle exits and just behind the crown, as to the type of grease the jeweller just said 'watch grease' it is of course possible he used something simple like vaseline, or a little more complex like a silicon grease such as "shin etsu".

MRC · Feb 12, 2018

abrod520
Ah - I have a feeling then that your watch may be just fine. Despite the fact that the winding crown is on the left, the Chronomatic movements still wind clockwise - so if you wind counter-clockwise, the crown should move smoothly (no resistance whatsoever) with a very faint ratcheting noise. Wound clockwise (I usually do so by keeping the watch dial-up, but turning it upside-down so the crown is on the right) you'll encounter some resistance in the crown as you wind it, and a definite "grinding" noise and sensation as the spring is wound up, not unlike winding a manual-wind watch. However, while it will take some firmness to do, the crown shouldn't resist winding - so if you feel like you have to force it, don't.

DOHH! I have been winding my Crono-matic widdershins! Yes, with dial up the top of crown to 12 o'clock is completely free, top of crown to 6 o'clock is a fine rachet (but a lot less ratchety than the Valjoux 7733 I'm wearing today). It seems that getting it out of the box and holding it to wind, even though in the wrong direction, is enough for the -matic part to get it going.

abrod520 · Feb 12, 2018

MRC
It seems that getting it out of the box and holding it to wind, even though in the wrong direction, is enough for the -matic part to get it going.

For all the trouble that they are to service, the Chronomatic movement family are actually really hard-working that way. They wind up fast and run for days.

gt350mk · Feb 13, 2018

Ok gang I’ve got watch dyslexia. Turning the crown clockwise produces the grinding/gritty feeling when winding it. The other way is just fine since it isn’t imparting anything to the man spring. When I first got my Daytona it acted smooth like every other modern automatic. I then wound the watch to the max and after that I get this grinding feeling when winding it CLOCKWISE ( the direction that winds the main spring). Has anyone ever had this issue with any other automatic besides the Chrono-Matic? Does most owners of these watches have a gritty, grinding feeling when winding the watch? Has anyone been mislead by a watchmaker with this watch. For some reason I just fell for these watches even though they are overly expensive but totally awesome. Does anyone have an El Primero or 7750 with similar winding weirdness?

Thank you,
Marc Kay

abrod520 · Feb 13, 2018

G gt350mk
Ok gang I’ve got watch dyslexia. Turning the crown clockwise produces the grinding/gritty feeling when winding it. The other way is just fine since it isn’t imparting anything to the man spring. When I first got my Daytona it acted smooth like every other modern automatic. I then wound the watch to the max and after that I get this grinding feeling when winding it CLOCKWISE ( the direction that winds the main spring). Has anyone ever had this issue with any other automatic besides the Chrono-Matic? Does most owners of these watches have a gritty, grinding feeling when winding the watch? Has anyone been mislead by a watchmaker with this watch. For some reason I just fell for these watches even though they are overly expensive but totally awesome. Does anyone have an El Primero or 7750 with similar winding weirdness?

Thank you,
Marc Kay

Some automatics don't have much feedback when hand-winding, but the Chronomatic does. Unless you feel like you have to force the crown to turn, I have a feeling your watch is all right

Gambba · Feb 13, 2018

None of my other automatics or manuals have quite the same winding feeling as the chronomatic Calibre 12 in my Autavia.

I, like @abrod520 think yours may just be fine.

I just did a quick video of winding mine, which may solve things for you.....just need to post it somehow. Counterclockwise first and then the very distinctive actual mainspring clockwise winding.

MRC · Feb 14, 2018

abrod520
For all the trouble that they are to service, the Chronomatic movement family are actually really hard-working that way. They wind up fast and run for days.

Certainly do! Mine runs for 52:30 from a full reserve and picking it up, not winding and wearing it for 8 hours it ran for a further 50:50. I make that 6:1 run/wear ratio. Amazing.

Of course the date wheel has a mind of its own -- maybe I should get a set of those little aluminium monthly calendars that fitted to the strap. In the '70s they were given away at trade exhibitions so I never lacked a supply, but now they are fairly costly IMO.

Gambba
None of my other automatics or manuals have quite the same winding feeling as the chronomatic Calibre 12 in my Autavia.

I go along with that. It is a much finer ratchet.